Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

[FriendofJoanne]

I'm in a new job so probation period. Professional role, one where you'd really expect critical thinking. Quite a high proportion of the teens so far seem to identify as trans or non-binary.

I think I need to keep my head down, I will bring up the Cass review with the rest of my team once the time is right and maybe gently question how much they know; if they're aware of the lack of evidence for gender affirming care, the safeguarding concerns at Mermaids etc.

We work with really vulnerable young people, this (gender identity) I have really researched thoroughly and I do not want to be complicit in any harm. When I'm with the teens I treat them as individuals, that's no problem, in their presence I will respect their requested pronouns, and of course in written records. I have done it before in the past, but I didn't know as much then as I do now.

What I'm really struggling with is my colleagues using female pronouns for clearly male teenagers, when we are alone in the office (so far I'm only aware of boys identifying as girls and a girl identifying as non-binary) . I can't do it. I can't call a male 'she' because to me it represents being complicit in something I see as harmful.

Anyone else in this position? How do you cope?

I think in certain situations this is the only way to get any work done. There was a thread a while ago (i can't remember what it was called sorry) where one of the posters explained how difficult it made doing anything because everyone in her workplace was changing pronouns with frequency and keeping up was becoming a full time job because everyone kept getting them wrong and having to go back and correct and then there was confusion because some people used 'they' pronouns individually so there was confusion whether it was an individual or group who were doing things.

Using names saves a lot of time. If pronouns are individual and not a signifier of belonging to a particular class (male, female or a group) then arguably they are redundant anyway as serve the same function as names in language. You might as well use names - means you have to only remember one thing for each person instead of two.

If you just use names you can't accidentally 'misgender' someone and it's easier as your brain is already conditioned to expect names to be individual as that is the function names fulfil in the English language. With pronouns it's virtually impossible not to slip up if you use mostly sex-based pronouns based on observation or previous usage, because what you're asking your brain to do is apply a rule in most instances and then make an exception some of the time. A bit like asking your brain to very occasionally say 'giraffe' when you see an elephant. Really tough cognitively. If you just use names, it's simple.

Honestly, I'm a big fan of this. I also think it's better for trans teens / children also for a myriad of reasons .

Yes the misgendering issue goes away then. I have noticed several people skipping using any pronouns at all. Colleague X is "off camera" rather than "off her camera". Colleague Y is at lunch rather than "on her lunch". I think there will be adjustments, but it seems a way forward for those of us who find it so difficult. The problem is though enough of us need to do it, for it to become usual and therefore not stand out. It can done, the introduction of Ms into the English language was successful and somewhat normalised over time.

I just don't think it's possible to only use names not pronouns, unless you work in a very slow paced job which allows a lot of thinking time before you speak. I used to try and use 'they' or names for some students and I think I managed about one sentence before reverting to 'she' completely unconsciously. When you're managing the behaviour, learning and wellbeing of 150 kids in a day in a practical subject, there is no headspace to re-form unconscious aspects of the English language at the same time.

I'm not convinced that avoiding use of pronouns is a complete solution. While it avoids controversy, it nonetheless allows girls the illusion that they are not girls, for example.

Sorry, completely clueless here and shouldn't take over op's post with my questions, however I am shocked!
Do you mean to say that if a pupil (male) comes to you and says 'I now identify as a female and want you to start calling me Samantha', that you are not allowed to tell the parents??
I really hope that I misunderstood this, because if that is how things are now, the world has really gone bonkers.
Sorry again op for derailing your post.

It's surprising how few times I have to talk about any of the teenagers as opposed to to them. I mainly get by using their chosen name, and I put in a lot of confidence building, acceptance of oneself and resilience type of content without going anywhere near sex or gende in the hope that the teens I work with will feel happy enough in their own skins.

@Blackoutbeans I can't speak for the other poster but that is indeed a lot of school's policies informed by stonewall.

@ValancyRedfern playing devil's advocate a bit and not trying to deliberately provoke you. But I do think unconscious iteration of an unthinking culture is problematic if you are teaching youth. It is part of where the problem stems from in the first place. I do have the utmost respect for teachers who see their profession as a true vocation. And I know it is a ridiculously demanding job that isn't given the status it really deserves. But I think teachers of youth need to lead. I think it is a responsibility. We all learned to speak at one point in our lives, we also learn languages, we can relearn things.

It's not HRT if men take it.

@Dissidente how does it allow girls the illusion they are not girls. A word doesn't have to describe their experience. It is our lived reality. If anything it would stop this ridiculousness of assuming that language creates rather than describes reality. A person is a person, we don't need a word to tell us that this person is female, it is obvious.

I work in an impacted field (with autistic teens) and I respect pronouns in the presence of the person. When talking about them I try to avoid pronoun use or use "they".

I have been there a long time but what I did was kind of raise that we have to work within national and legal guidelines, that I had read Cass had found it raised some difficult points to ponder and the education guidance had also changed to be more conservative (small c). I also mentioned that the equality act means we have to be careful with arrangements and recommendations as there is no heirarchy of protected characteristics and there could potentially be a conflict, surely (disingenuous baffled questioning again on my part) if we made recommendations (for example, recommending access to toilets of identified sex rather than actual) that could impact those with other protected characteristics (eg religious needs for single sex spaces for modesty). It would not be defendable under equality act if we tried to say this person's protected characteristic is more important than the other. So whilst we need to be mindful of privacy and dignity, that has to be EVERYONE's, not just the trans teen's. I also mentioned that I found the tendency to frame any such questioning as "transphobic" when really its about duty of care to everyone, and protecting vulnerable kids from taking irreversible pathways at a young age, which is what Cass says too.

Once I started these mutterings, I found that other middle aged women had similar opinions. Young women hadn't really thought beyond 'be kind', but were generally prepared to consider , and the younger men were most vociferously pro-trans.

Thank you so much for your replies everyone, it's helpful to get different perspectives. It's not so much the talking directly to YP that's an issue, as pronouns aren't used then anyway.

It's the fact that colleagues are referring to eg a boy as she/her when it is just us in the office, it obscures the truth. @JoodyBlue you've hit the nail on the head for me:

JoodyBlue · 12/07/2023 20:13
@ValancyRedfern playing devil's advocate a bit and not trying to deliberately provoke you. But I do think unconscious iteration of an unthinking culture is problematic if you are teaching youth. It is part of where the problem stems from in the first place.

My manager has been around a long time working with teens so hopefully realises this is a very recent issue, I'm going to have a word with him next week and gently probe as to whether there has been any team discussion about this, if there is an organisational position and if there is, where did it originate. I'll not go full on Terf, just show curiosity and ask if he's aware of the Cass review.

@Blackoutbeans I'm not sure if there are schools still doing this in England, but it's actually the policy in Scotland I believe.

@Blackoutbeans sorry I didn't make myself clear there! I think it's policy in Scotland to affirm children in their chosen gender identity and not tell parents.

@AvaCallanach thank you, this is exactly my plan. I hope I don't fudge it too much.

Haven't Stonewall decreed that avoiding pronouns is transphobic?

What a great discussion. I know that the guidelines for schools have been delayed yet again. I have heard (but can't be certain) that one of the reasons is they didn't reflect Cass, plus concerns about schools thoughtlessly socially transitioning children. They'll be out for consultation so hopefully many of these nuanced issues for adults working with young people will get shared.

@FriendofJoanne you have my support. I am in a not dissimilar position. Listening to detransitioners who feel let down by the "adults" who should have been caring about them is heart breaking. I do believe many young people believe they have no choice but to "come out" because of confusing messaging from those who should be holding the line firm for them to be who they are, perfect as they are, without society, government, teachers, and the internet telling them they need to change sex identification for acceptance.

As Stonewall have deemed that anything that is not complete capitulation to their demands is transphobia, I'm not sure how much we should be bothered?

I am GC. My DC’s friend group includes a large number of people who use alternate pronouns. I address her friends by their preferred names and pronouns. I also use those names and pronouns even if it is just DH and I talking because it is easier to avoid making a mistake around the teenagers if I am consistent.

The thing is, it's not about pronouns really it's about people wanting you to believe things that are just obviously untrue. Of course it feels weird and counterintuitive. They are relying on people's politeness and the be kind movement to get away with this shit.

These people want control over our thoughts and our language. We owe it to ourselves not to let that happen.

In the end, I think it boils down to a hatred of middle-aged women who have fought for women's rights all their lives.

I don't undestand why you say that. The OP asked about pronouns, several people said they avoid them. I said that doesn't settle my mind.
Are you saying it doesn't matter which pronouns we use? I feel you're making an important point but not sure what.

Explain to SLT that if a child is being referred to by opposite sex pronouns at school, without the parents' knowledge, then the parents are very likely to find out from someone who isn't a teacher. Instead of a managed disclosure, it will be a surprise reveal, and that is surely far more risky for the child.

SLT can tell staff they are not allowed to tell the parents. They cannot control what every single other pupil in a secondary school says. Or what their parents say. Before now, on social media, I have seen devout religious teenagers bragging about telling parents about seeing a girl out of hijab, and getting that girl "disciplined". This stuff happens. Children also get blackmailed over things like secret school lives. If a predator should find out about this double-life, they've got a nice easy hold here.

If safeguarding is truly the concern and they think the child is in danger if the parents find out, then why aren't they worried that a fellow pupil might let it slip to the parents on a Friday, or the last day of term? When this child won't be able to seek help from school?

A managed disclosure is much lower risk!

Even if I could re-learn English, doing so in this context would be to reinforce gender stereotypes (as the Venn diagram of all the girls I teach who don't think they're girls and all the girls I teach with short hair and trousers is a perfect circle), which goes against all my beliefs, and what I think is in the best interests of these girls.