Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

[FriendofJoanne]

I'm in a new job so probation period. Professional role, one where you'd really expect critical thinking. Quite a high proportion of the teens so far seem to identify as trans or non-binary.

I think I need to keep my head down, I will bring up the Cass review with the rest of my team once the time is right and maybe gently question how much they know; if they're aware of the lack of evidence for gender affirming care, the safeguarding concerns at Mermaids etc.

We work with really vulnerable young people, this (gender identity) I have really researched thoroughly and I do not want to be complicit in any harm. When I'm with the teens I treat them as individuals, that's no problem, in their presence I will respect their requested pronouns, and of course in written records. I have done it before in the past, but I didn't know as much then as I do now.

What I'm really struggling with is my colleagues using female pronouns for clearly male teenagers, when we are alone in the office (so far I'm only aware of boys identifying as girls and a girl identifying as non-binary) . I can't do it. I can't call a male 'she' because to me it represents being complicit in something I see as harmful.

Anyone else in this position? How do you cope?

@FriendofJoanne

"With gender it's having the fear of being labelled transphobic if I try and talk about the harms with them."

Is it actually your job to talk to them about their gender identity, or is this just something that you want to do because your personal belief is that it is wrong?

It seems that you are working with at-risk youth. Using their chosen pronoun would be a sign of respect, and for at-risk youth, that would be beneficial, not harmful. A pronoun is not something that "can't be reversed" if their future self decides that they do want to identify as the gender that traditionally matches their sex. Respecting their choice (even when they are not present) will not harm them.

I would stick to names and avoid pronouns completely

@QUZ I mean talk about the other professionals, but yes I will be working directly with teens. My approach with teens identifying as trans will be the same as my approach with any other person, I will treat them as individuals and get to know them.

It's the fear of raising professional concerns with my colleagues I was talking about.

Fuck that shit.

I would rather be unemployed and living in a skip before I bow down and accept all this pronouns bollocks.

If a predator should find out about this double-life, they've got a nice easy hold here.

If safeguarding is truly the concern and they think the child is in danger if the parents find out, then why aren't they worried that a fellow pupil might let it slip to the parents on a Friday, or the last day of term? When this child won't be able to seek help from school? A managed disclosure is much lower risk!

100% this. Schools aren't doing proper safeguarding if they allow secrets from parents in this way.

If you accept pronouns you're accepting you are less important than the person demanding the different-from-normal pronouns. It's all about signalling who's more important, power and control in my opinion. It reminds me of coercive control.

IF EVERYONE demands individual pronouns it becomes absolutely impossible to keep track and it's really hard because your brain is working against the rules it expects - you're changing the function of pronouns in language, not just the words used - like substituting an adjective for a noun.

It's absolutely impossible to not make mistakes and that's the point. Remember in Denise Fahmy's trial where the witness who was demanding 'they/them' pronouns for a person being discussed and then abjectly failed to keep to this himself using he/him all the time and eventually giving up IIRC? TRAs can't do it either.

It's all about a paper thin reason to 'burn the witch'. TRAs don't get crucified for making mistakes, middle aged women do. We can never do anything right. Personally I refuse to accept that I'm less worthy and I have reasons why I can't cope with the cognitive load - many people do. It's not an easy thing for many, and somehow in all the 'being kind and respectful' there's not much respect for that.

But back to the OP - I don't think it's very helpful to vulnerable young people for them to be encouraged to think other people don't matter. This is not a recipe for success in life. In fact many vulnerable young people benefit a lot from thinking about others and looking outwards, not only focusing on themselves.

Telling young people that others getting pronouns wrong means they are 'hated' is incredibly dangerous for their mental health and also obviously absurd given it's really difficult and takes some practice.

I refer to people by their name. It is not just about people wishing to be they or she when born male, it is also if I have not met them or spoken before, and they have a name reflecting their birth or heritage which I am up until then unaware is male or female.

In a similar position I have:

• used names and pronouns to demonstrate I respect the child's chosen gender identity and am not being gratuitously difficult
• made a clear distinction between gender identity and biological sex whenever it is relevant.

So [fake example] "Amy identifies as a girl, but it's important to remember that she is still biologically male. Given her history of harmful sexual behaviour, I think there would be a safeguarding risk if she were to share a room with Beth on the summer camp."

It was largely effective. It feels a bit clunky but it gets the point across.

Just use the name and construct sentences differently - I work with adults, there is no way I am ever going to indulge in the harm that this ideology is causing to extremely vulnerable people.

Good example from @InvisibleDragon

Totally get where you are coming from OP, I am totally open minded about gender identity but I find it really hard to call someone that looks female a male because it’s just a natural response to say ‘she’ when they don’t look like a ‘he’. I don’t think I would be able to work with teens for this reason.

My dd identifies as male and so does a couple of her friends, they clearly don’t look male so I find it hard to refer to them as ‘he’, this really upsets my dd. Now when she mentions a friend I try to refer to them as ‘they’ as she refuses to tell me what they identify as (as she thinks I am being homophobic for asking 😳). I constantly feel like I am putting my foot in it. Ideally I would refer to each person by their name and not use pronouns at all.

@Dissidente apologies. My post to you wasn't clear at all :) Left to myself I would much prefer to simply use pronouns that reflect my experience of the world. If I see a female I would use she. What I was trying to say though, was in the culture now some youngsters kick against this. So, in order to retain influence where they don't simply switch off or where they don't react in some way, pronouns can be avoidable. I guess it is to my mind an extension of the parenting adage "pick your battles". It is pragmatic. I would argue with genderists till the cows come home, but still not have any real influence. The way to influence is to find a way to really communicate at some level. Perhaps?

Not a teacher or SW but as the parent of a troubled autistic teen on the fringe of this stuff I LOVE it when I meet GC professionals in the process. I feel so reassured that they will not throw my child away, that they will actually look at her problems. Thank you OP from all of us.

I just use their name. If absolutely necessary I use "they". I think it's a load of bollocks and simply won't use the opposite pronoun to the sex of the individual.

It's quite lonely to be GC in an organisation where you can't say you are. I'd love to know which of my colleagues feel the same as me. (Most don't seem to - as many are gay and/or have a transitioned child).

I agree

My mate works for an educational charity with teens and she hates it makes everything complex.

I use nothing these days and call everyone mate.

@FriendofJoanne

Okay; I misunderstood who you meant by "them" (which is very funny, in an ironic sense). That's a relief, but that does not negate the underlying question. You haven't actually said what your job is, or what type of service (?) organization this is. There has only been an implication that you work with at-risk youth.

The way I am reading you (based on OP and your responses to other's messages), this is about your PERSONAL belief, not scientific or social fact. I have great respect for folks who say, "I can't do this job because it conflicts with my personal beliefs." But this isn't that; it seems you want to stay and "convert" others to believing what you do?

Here is a thought for you, other gender critical feminists, and anyone else who is absolutely convinced that there is a genetically determinative connection between sex (a biological fact) and gender (a social construction). At least one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside). If sex is biologically determinative of gender, then shouldn't those children be non-binary?

No, I am not a gender critical feminist, but I will advise you on how to proceed at work. Raising this with your supervisor, not your colleagues, is definitely the way to go. If I were your supervisor, I would be very concerned that you seem to think that not acknowledging the reality of the problem that lead many of your clientele to be part of a vulnerable population could be part of the solution to the problem?

Please do some research on the numbers of non-heteronormative teens who end up homeless because their parents kick them out of the house, or let them stay, but abuse them in the name of "love," as soon as they say they are gay or trans. Learn the grisly truth about the reality of that lived experience before deciding, on their behalf, that this is just a fad, a social trend, or all in their heads.

I couldn't do it. One of the reasons I left teaching. Look for another job.

@Quz

Where are you taking that definition of intersex from??

It is simply not true that 1 in 1000 babies have 'some version of both male and female genitalia'.

With respect Quz, you appear to have a significant absence of knowledge about child / adolescent psychology, safeguarding and the law.
If you know anything about the outcomes from children alienated from their parents / families, you would know that these children do appallingly in terms of life chances - educationally, involvement in crime, drugs, homelessness etc. This national data is well researched and informs our safeguarding procedures as well as how children in care are treated.
The only people encouraging young people to become alienated from their families are those with vested interests in destabilising families and children.
The rest of know that society should be supporting them, not encouraging their destruction.

Seriously? When you left, did you tell your employer why?

With teens I would just use Name and then use ‘they’ only if constantly using they’d name is too clunky. No opposite-sex pronouns if they don’t sit right. If challenged you could say you try to keep it neutral as a policy because things can change a lot at this age and you don’t want to presume anyone’s gender identity or box them into a corner. Also you have a lot of kids to remember and this is the least worst way you’ve found. Yours is a child- centred approach.
Rinse and repeat.

I work with a few people in their early 20s so not teens OP. When you’re new it’s probably better to just try to stay in the safe zone for a bit.

@Pineappledancer

Do you not believe intersexed infants exist at all, or are you simply challenging my statistic. Where does your info that it "simply isn't true" come from?

According to World Population Review (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/intersex-people-by-country), the number per country/continent depends on whether or not there is an option to use a non-binary identifier on the birth certificate. Because many European countries do not permit that option, Europe as a whole has very few intersexed infants officially. This page provides a complete breakdown of ambiguous genatalia by type and frequency (based on medical literature between 1955 and 1998, so not part of the "modern" trend) and found:

"Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance one or two in 1,000 births"

For your further reading pleasure:

For a definition and official recognition of the fact that intersexed infants do IN FACT exist: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/numberofbabieswithintersextraits

For definition/discussion/medical and social research/academic papers (and more official recognition that they do exist):

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=intersexed+infants&ia=web

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=national+health+service+intersexed+infants&ia=web

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Medical-Construction-of-Gender%3A-Case-Management-Kessler/ed549d80e27036f75c61db7de402a125c32ba0c4