Page 6 | Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

FriendofJoanne · 2023-07-11T22:42:33+00:00

I'm in a new job so probation period. Professional role, one where you'd really expect critical thinking. Quite a high proportion of the teens so far seem to identify as trans or non-binary. I think I need to keep my head down, I will bring up the Cass review with the rest of my team once the time is right and maybe gently question how much they know; if they're aware of the lack of evidence for gender affirming care, the safeguarding concerns at Mermaids etc. We work with really vulnerable young people, this (gender identity) I have really researched thoroughly and I do not want to be complicit in any harm. When I'm with the teens I treat them as individuals, that's no problem, in their presence I will respect their requested pronouns, and of course in written records. I have done it before in the past, but I didn't know as much then as I do now. What I'm really struggling with is my colleagues using female pronouns for clearly male teenagers, when we are alone in the office (so far I'm only aware of boys identifying as girls and a girl identifying as non-binary) . I can't do it. I can't call a male 'she' because to me it represents being complicit in something I see as harmful. Anyone else in this position? How do you cope?

ScreamingBeans · 19/07/2023 20:48

What ever your personal opinions, you respect their choices and refer to them as they request. No skin off your nose, them wanting to be called ‘She’ when it is obvious they were born ‘He’ doesn’t harm anyone. You can think in your head that it is weird, but why not just respect their choice as far as the ‘He’ or ‘She’ bit? Basically is what I do, whatever my personal opinions.

The reason I think this is wrong, is because I don't believe this is about about respecting someone's choices, because their choices have a direct influence on your choices. Why is there no reciprocal argument to say "Why not just respect the choice of someone to refer to you in a way they perceive you, not the way you want them to pretend to perceive you?"

You have a choice to pretend to believe in someone else's worldview and religion and perception of themselves, or to be true to your own worldview and beliefs and perception of others, to trust your own perceptions instead of deferring to someone else's.

You are under no obligation to say "peace be upon him" every time the prophet Mohammed is mentioned, however passionately someone believes you ought to. You are under no obligation to call a priest "Father" when he is not your father and you don't believe in his religion.

This is no different. This is someone demanding that you pretend you believe something you don't believe. This is not just skin off your nose, it's your whole bloody nose. And your eyes, mouth and the rest of your face too quite frankly.

Original poster

FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 18:59

Quz · 15/07/2023 15:28

@FriendofJoanne

Okay; I misunderstood who you meant by "them" (which is very funny, in an ironic sense). That's a relief, but that does not negate the underlying question. You haven't actually said what your job is, or what type of service (?) organization this is. There has only been an implication that you work with at-risk youth.

The way I am reading you (based on OP and your responses to other's messages), this is about your PERSONAL belief, not scientific or social fact. I have great respect for folks who say, "I can't do this job because it conflicts with my personal beliefs." But this isn't that; it seems you want to stay and "convert" others to believing what you do?

Here is a thought for you, other gender critical feminists, and anyone else who is absolutely convinced that there is a genetically determinative connection between sex (a biological fact) and gender (a social construction). At least one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside). If sex is biologically determinative of gender, then shouldn't those children be non-binary?

No, I am not a gender critical feminist, but I will advise you on how to proceed at work. Raising this with your supervisor, not your colleagues, is definitely the way to go. If I were your supervisor, I would be very concerned that you seem to think that not acknowledging the reality of the problem that lead many of your clientele to be part of a vulnerable population could be part of the solution to the problem?

Please do some research on the numbers of non-heteronormative teens who end up homeless because their parents kick them out of the house, or let them stay, but abuse them in the name of "love," as soon as they say they are gay or trans. Learn the grisly truth about the reality of that lived experience before deciding, on their behalf, that this is just a fad, a social trend, or all in their heads.

@Quz my beliefs are not my personal beliefs, but a professional opinion I have come to after hundreds of hours reading research, articles, listening to pod casts and watching documentaries. There is an explosion in teens identifying as trans who would in other circumstances grow up to be gay or lesbian. There is evidence that they are thinking that their feelings of not fitting in, or feeling uncomfortable in their bodies are signs that they are transgender rather than completely normal feelings that come with adolescence.

It is heartbreaking the number of parents who are still not accepting of gender non-conformity and their teens coming out as gay or lesbian. Sadly internalised homophobia seems to be a part of some teenagers identifying as trans. I have listened to many stories of adult transsexuals (as they describe themeselves) who are themselves called transphobic for raising their concerns. Some of them are very happy in their trans identities but acknowledge the difficulties that come with this, both in terms of medical side effects and fact that this is a huge decision that should not be taken lightly.

There is a mounting amount of evidence from systematic reviews which call into question the outcomes of transition long term, hence the rolling back of 'affirmation' only. I'm concerned that my fellow professionals are not aware of this. My worry is that by accepting (thus affirming) a teen in their chosen identity when I am aware that social affirmation tends to lead a child down a path of medical transition. At the moment I am no directly working with any teens who identify as trans, so I will 'cross that bridge' when I come to it.

I am not sharing my specific job because of the current climate we are all working in - the number of women who have lost their jobs for questioning the current narrative that anyone can be a man or a woman simply by declaring it so, and that biology doesn't matter.

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FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:10

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/07/2023 17:03

With respect Quz, you appear to have a significant absence of knowledge about child / adolescent psychology, safeguarding and the law.
If you know anything about the outcomes from children alienated from their parents / families, you would know that these children do appallingly in terms of life chances - educationally, involvement in crime, drugs, homelessness etc. This national data is well researched and informs our safeguarding procedures as well as how children in care are treated.
The only people encouraging young people to become alienated from their families are those with vested interests in destabilising families and children.
The rest of know that society should be supporting them, not encouraging their destruction.

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Thank you @MrsOvertonsWindow for your response. It is so concerning to me that the very people (in my profession) who should know this, but seem to have forgotten it all because of gender identity ideology.

I'm hoping not, and that they are all just keeping their critical thinking to themselves because of the current climate. I did speak to my supervisor and they just said we accept people are what they say they are. When I brought up the Cass review I'm not sure they knew what I was talking about.

I did hear an excellent podcast today - the latest Gender A Wider Lens, https://genspect.org/widerlens/ episode 124 and I've been considering how I'll approach the topic if when I do work with a trans identifying teen. I will encourage them to park the gender identity issue to one side while we explore the other aspects of their life. (I'm not a teacher btw and my role is to work 1:1 with teens to help them with any difficulties).

Gender: A Wider Lens - Genspect

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FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:16

BaronMunchausen · 15/07/2023 20:36

@Quz I think everyone here is positive about females and males not conforming to the stereotypes society has constructed for their sex. It’s kind of feminism 101 as the Americans say - but the idea that nonconformity means you may actually BE the opposite sex is actually antithetical to it because it denies gender non-conformity.

Counterintuitive pronouns come in the context of a movement (as represented by Stonewall UK and many other pressure groups) that demand access, based on gender expression, to spaces, services and sports that have been segregated on the basis not of gender but of biological sex. This obviously affects women and girls. Not all men see the inequality - or they take the blanket approach to safeguarding personally.

The construction of gender goes hand in hand with biological determinism - the idea that biology determines our roles (e.g. women give birth ergo should look after kids, men are stronger ergo should be the breadwinner etc) has been used historically (and still is) to oppress women and girls. The belief that sex is determinative of social gender expression is false and entirely regressive and oppressive. DSDs (‘intersex’ as you put it) are entirely irrelevant.

While there is a debate to be had about 'womanface', most people were happy enough to use feminine pronouns for drag queens - gay men who assumed the persona of a stereotypically feminine woman - but they have different implications when the pronoun is for real and a pass to female safe spaces for males, or to life-altering surgery for girls who understandably want to flee what society has constructed for them as women.

Also - ‘being trans’ is a radically different experience for females and males.

Great response @BaronMunchausen

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FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:22

BreatheAndFocus · 16/07/2023 08:54

Do you actually read what people write? Intersex is an outdated term, and I do have a person close to me with a DSD. That’s why I responded - because what you wrote was inaccurate, othering and upsetting. Do you get it now?

Moreover, DSDs have nothing to do with trans people, and many DSD organisations have asked not to be brought into this.

Fausto-Sterling’s 5 sexes thing? That was a thought experiment not an actual belief that there are five sexes.

You seem confused between sex and gender. Yes, there are gendered expectations for men and women (males and females). We were well on the path to getting rid of those until this regressive nonsense appeared where people are told they need to identify as the other sex to perform gendered activities/appearances linked with that sex. This is the message many young people are getting. When I was a teen a fair few male teens wore makeup. They knew that they could do that because makeup wasn’t just for girls and such gendered expectations were silly. Now that same male teen could think they were ‘trans’ or ‘non-binary’. The reason they might think that is because gendered expectations have been reinforced by gender identity ideology. We are going backwards. Most of these people don’t have gender dysphoria. They have a simplistic view that being a boy and liking ‘girl things’ must mean they’re not a boy 🙄 This is the complete opposite of gender non-conformity. It’s regressive, boring gender conformity.

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👏👏👏absolutely @BreatheAndFocus

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FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:32

Notamum12345577 · 16/07/2023 10:35

What ever your personal opinions, you respect their choices and refer to them as they request. No skin off your nose, them wanting to be called ‘She’ when it is obvious they were born ‘He’ doesn’t harm anyone. You can think in your head that it is weird, but why not just respect their choice as far as the ‘He’ or ‘She’ bit? Basically is what I do, whatever my personal opinions. Also, if you don’t and call them by the wrong gender (in their eyes) you could find yourself on the end of a disciplinary. It is different if they are aggressively pushing opinions onto you, but if they aren’t …..

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It does harm people though @Notamum12345577 - listen to the testimonies of detransitioners - Benjamin Boyce has interviewed many young adults who regret their transitions and wish that any professional had challenged them, not just accepted that they are now really a boy or really a girl without question.

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FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:46

The thread went off piste a bit, but I want to thank you all for your responses, sorry I didn't get time to reply at the time. Some really articulate points on the whole debate, which I will refer back to when I need.

I'm laying lowish, I did try to bring up my concerns in supervision but didn't get very far. I have seen the policy on working with trans children and it is very much affirmative, stating anyone can use the toilet they feel comfortable with depending on their gender identity and should not be asked to use a third space, however it is unlikely that they will be using our office toilets anyway, and we can't go around telling schools, colleges or other services what to do as they will have their own policies.

This is another way it does cause harm @Notamum12345577 - girls are entitled to single sex changing rooms and toilets for their own dignity and privacy, not to be told they have to share with a teenage boy because he announces that he is now non-binary or a girl. There are several cases of sexual assault and physical assault on female students by trans identifying male students in the girls toilets in USA schools.

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Notamum12345577 · 30/07/2023 08:46

FriendofJoanne · 29/07/2023 19:46

The thread went off piste a bit, but I want to thank you all for your responses, sorry I didn't get time to reply at the time. Some really articulate points on the whole debate, which I will refer back to when I need.

I'm laying lowish, I did try to bring up my concerns in supervision but didn't get very far. I have seen the policy on working with trans children and it is very much affirmative, stating anyone can use the toilet they feel comfortable with depending on their gender identity and should not be asked to use a third space, however it is unlikely that they will be using our office toilets anyway, and we can't go around telling schools, colleges or other services what to do as they will have their own policies.

This is another way it does cause harm @Notamum12345577 - girls are entitled to single sex changing rooms and toilets for their own dignity and privacy, not to be told they have to share with a teenage boy because he announces that he is now non-binary or a girl. There are several cases of sexual assault and physical assault on female students by trans identifying male students in the girls toilets in USA schools.

I am a great believer in single sex spaces. I am not trans affirming, but I do find it difficult both ways/opinions. In this country, there have been very very few cases of trans women (used to be men) attacking women in women’s only spaces. But there have been more cases of trans women being attacked by men in men only spaces. So tbh I struggle which way to lean in my opinion. 🤷

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/07/2023 10:25

But there have been more cases of trans women being attacked by men in men only spaces.

Evidence? Which country? Also, it's not just about safety. No males belong in female spaces. It's a violation of the privacy and dignity of women and girls.

DreamItDoIt · 30/07/2023 11:04

@Notamum12345577 women are not responsible for protecting men and women's spaces are not there as a refuge for men.

If men are attacking transwomen ie a man dressing up as a woman then the men need to be educated to understand that people can dress as they please. Men need to sort this out for themselves.