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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

302 replies

QuimReaper · 11/07/2023 11:14

This is quite confusingly written. Is the ruling just about discrimination, or has it actually overturned the testosterone judgment?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

Semenya wins court appeal over testosterone limits

The European Court of Human Rights rules in favour of double Olympic 800m champion Caster Semenya in a case involving testosterone levels in female athletes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/66162083

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 22:19

Let's remember that the current world record holder for 800m is Jarmila Kratochvilova from Czech Republic and has fought allegations of doping for decades. Her record still stands from 1983 at 1:53.28

It is remarkable because obviously they cannot go back with current tests.

Pamela Jelimo has a story of overcoming extreme poverty to race as well. She set the third fastest 800m in 2008 at 1:54.01. AND Pamela also lost places to doping female runners in future races.

Semenya holds the fourth fastest 800m record for female athletes.

viques · 11/07/2023 22:21

Plasmodesmata · 11/07/2023 12:01

Is this a situation where a separate category could work? Given that the gold, silver and bronze medals in Rio 800m were all taken by athletes with DSDs, it seems that there would be sufficient competition. No lowering of testosterone needed and the women's category remains fair.

Well, doesn’t it seem a bit odd to you that the extremely rare condition of DSD appears with astonishing regularity in the already extremely small population of people who are racing in world class women’s middle distance running.

I mean, what are the chances of that happening?

viques · 11/07/2023 22:37

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 13:18

In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in
99.99% of the female population.

Let that sink in for a bit.

The UCI (Cycling international) decided that male people would be FAIR to compete against female people at a testosterone level that 0.01% of female people have. And it is likely that that % of female people may have also have a tumour needing attention...

And people wonder why female athletes are outraged!

And of course should any female athlete be daft enough to take even the smallest amount of testosterone to increase muscle size that would be seen , quite rightly, as cheating. Because having a much larger amount of testosterone in her system than her competitors wouldn’t be fair would it, oh, hold on a minute, something doesn’t quite fit in that argument.

nothingcomestonothing · 11/07/2023 22:44

Helleofabore · 11/07/2023 21:48

This blog is Clare's (sp??) isn't it? Clare came and recommended us to read it and I couldn't remember what it was called. Thank you for posting it.

I do hope that @Freefall212 goes and reads it.

Yes, she writes so clearly and engagingly, it's great

Wanderingowl · 11/07/2023 23:11

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male.

What an utterly vile, nasty, offensive and ignorant comment about men with 5ARD! Do you really think you are the "good guy" yet come out with fucking horrible comments like that?

FelineGood76 · 12/07/2023 05:49

Wanderingowl · 11/07/2023 23:11

They wouldn't have 5ARD if they were born 100% male.

What an utterly vile, nasty, offensive and ignorant comment about men with 5ARD! Do you really think you are the "good guy" yet come out with fucking horrible comments like that?

Indeed.
Total ignorance and willfull stupidity in the face of facts. This is a person literally sticking their fingers in their ears and la,la,la-ing their way through any argument that destroys their mantra.
Try telling a 5ARD man that they are not 100% male.
You really have no clue how DSDs work do you?
There is no third sex, no third gamete, no fucking spectrum. You cannot be something other than male or female.
You have a cheek talking about science and fact when your grasp of basic reproductive and genetic concepts is tenuous at best.

Mummyoflittledragon · 12/07/2023 05:55

I am not surprised by the number people, who know nothing about DSDs. Most people go about the world oblivious to anything, which doesn’t directly impact them. People have busy lives.

NecessaryScene · 12/07/2023 06:46

Back when I was very active on Twitter, I spent a lot of time talking to some people with DSDs like 5ARD and PAIS and some of them are very distressed to be told they are simply “male and no argument”.

It’s my understanding that, in some places, people with DSDs are allowed legally to choose which sex they identify with, which has made life much easier for them.

DSDs vary a lot - it's a broad classification. I do recall Exulansic going off on one insisting that CAIS XY individuals are men, when that really doesn't make a lot of sense for almost any purpose, except maybe some gene-based therapy or reproductive assistance. There's definitely an argument there, and I'd say "it depends why you're asking about their sex". They're not phenotypically male, and would not be read as such by anyone. It makes more sense socially to classify them as female and women, due to the end result of their development. Their body on the whole develops much closer to the female form, despite no chance of actual female reproduction. (And I've not seen any evidence of male behaviour patterns, or sexuality. Anyone got any evidence either way?)

There is some scope for leeway in treatment in CAIS, and maybe PAIS in social circumstances. Those conditions are so rare, I think "let them choose" is not unreasonable. Society can't tolerate self-ID, and it's increasingly clear we shouldn't have tolerated "gender dysphoria" ID. But maybe it could tolerate "self-ID" for a subset of DSDs.

World Athletics has drawn the line saying CAIS is permitted into female sports, but not PAIS. CAIS does have a sporting advantage over XX females, enough to show up as clear overrepresentation in the field, but apparently not enough to be anything like the unbeatable male advantage, and they definitely would have no more hope in a male field than any woman.

But 5-ARD is really not like those at all. It's a far milder condition, where the developmental differences are far more localised. It is more a disorder of genital development specifically, than affecting the overall sexual phenotype of the body. There's really no ambiguity once you get past a cursory genital check at birth - as is clear when you see Semenya.

There would not be any reason for anyone third-party to suppose Semenya as an adult is female, apart from the presence in female sport and the continued lies from the press. Without the context, you'd assume "zero-effort transwoman" - male claiming to be female with no attempt to pass by any mannerisms or presentation, Alex Drummond or Danielle Muscato style. (Although actually that is the other place 5-ARD has an effect - reduced body hair and no baldness, so Semenya avoids two of the male secondary markers they have. But not being bald and not having a bushy beard is not sufficient to be female!)

And there's no sports disadvantage compared to other men, as far as I know. That's why the scouts were scouting for 5-ARD, not CAIS/PAIS! They were looking for men who had a strong chance to beat elite women. They knew all they needed to do is find someone with 5-ARD at "club runner" level, and they had a shot at the women's Olympics.

Now, it seems historically 5-ARD individuals have been some of those most mistreated in handlings of DSDs. It appears lack of properly developed male genitalia was sufficient to push them into a "not man" category and thus attempt to treat them as female. Which in turn would then require fighting nature - from Wikipedia:

"Female sex of rearing in 5αR2D individuals involves surgical procedures such as childhood gonadectomy (to prevent virilization at puberty) and vaginoplasty. Life-long hormonal treatments as also required for the development and maintenance of female secondary sex characteristics."

In other words - exactly the same as transing any male child, and without consent. And:

"later reports show that over half of patients who underwent virilizing puberty adopted a male gender identity thus challenging historical practices".

Yes, like other "trans children", if you leave them alone, they'll likely become accustomed to their actual sex.

"Male sex of rearing avoids lifelong hormonal treatments and allow for the potential of fertility."

Yes! As for any males! The assignment of female to a 5-ARD male is one of the most clearly wrong that could occur. It's purely on the basis of superficial initial genital appearance, and everything else in the body is going to be pushing the other way.

There are 4 very different cases:

  1. The mistreated 5-ARD individual who was actually "assigned female at birth". Effectively Jazz Jennings, but with even less consent. Infertile due to mistreatment.
  2. A 5-ARD individual who was told they were female as a child, but now looks in the mirror and sees a man, and will have had to come to terms with that. They would have figured it out by puberty. Underdeveloped genitals, but probably fertile with assistance.
  3. A 5-ARD individual who was correctly identified as male as a child, so has always known they were male, and has only to come to terms with their underdeveloped genitalia.
  4. A CAIS individual who has always believed they were female, and looks in the mirror and sees a woman, with no clear outward signs of anything unusual, but knows they're infertile due to their genetics, and has to put up with some people insisting they're a man.

Semenya is either 2 or 3, but it doesn't matter which, because they knew exactly what they were doing by the time they were entering women's sport. The exact nature of their back story is irrelevant. 2 gives them more "sympathy points" but you don't get to spend sympathy points on unfairness to women.

Helleofabore · 12/07/2023 07:46

Yes I read about the surgeries apparently done in the area Semenya grew up where they ‘shortened’ the penis to look more like a female anatomy in a baby.

I also read in that same area that many believed if you had to sit down to pee was all it took to classify a person as female. I don’t doubt that Semenya would probably need extensive therapy to cope or unpick a very young childhood of being constantly questioned about their sex. It no doubt contributed to the dismissive attitude that Semenya shows about girls and women. And seems to have done from teen years, from reports.

Helleofabore · 12/07/2023 07:55

Does anyone remember the name of the dude who was a testosterone expert (maybe a sports scientist or a researcher) who was somehow involved in either researching the doping or was actively doping female athletes in Eastern Europe, who then got a job to improve the performance of the Australian female athletes until people realise who he was and he was relieved of his contract after about six months. This was before 2000 Olympics. He was supposed to get the female athletes ready for the Olympics.

He was part of the talent scout group who are known to have targeted the male athletes with DSDs in Africa for female events.

I remember reading someone who tracked this man’s exploits (either Jon Pike, Emma Hilton or Ross Tucker tweeted about the man) and I cannot find his name again. Does anyone remember?

RightOnTheEdge · 12/07/2023 09:52

Is there evidence anywhere that Caster is the biological father of their children? I always see it on these threads but can't find it anywhere when I've searched.

meowgender · 12/07/2023 09:58

@Helleofabore was it Ekkart Arbeit?

Helleofabore · 12/07/2023 10:00

meowgender · 12/07/2023 09:58

@Helleofabore was it Ekkart Arbeit?

YES!!! I knew I would remember when I saw the name.

Helleofabore · 12/07/2023 10:07

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-caster-semenya-gender-controversy-article-1.397564

Plug into wayback machine.

Ekkart was well aware of how testosterone works and has been said by others in South Africa to have specifically sought athletes such as Semenya to get around the regulations.

NY Daily News - We are currently unavailable in your region

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-caster-semenya-gender-controversy-article-1.397564

Helleofabore · 12/07/2023 10:07

Thank you @meowgender !!

lieselotte · 12/07/2023 10:31

RightOnTheEdge · 12/07/2023 09:52

Is there evidence anywhere that Caster is the biological father of their children? I always see it on these threads but can't find it anywhere when I've searched.

I don't think so, I always ignore those claims as there is no proof.

Anklespraying · 12/07/2023 10:45

That's not going to end up in the public domain as it would trash the story arc. Medical treatment can reasonably be kept confidential.

If you flip it around though and a sperm doner was necessary for this couple, it's very normal now for people with activist backgrounds to publicly promote their story about systems of help to become same sex parents.

The pressure falls on the side of silence.

ditalini · 12/07/2023 10:46

I very much doubt the biological paternity of CS's children has been confirmed, and obviously it's absolutely no-one's business except theirs.

I suspect it's come about as there is certainly the potential for CS to have biological children, but I don't think 100% of males with 5ARDS are fertile (as is of course the case in all males) so it might not have been possible for them to have used sperm retrieval - internal testes are not the optimum environment.

SinnerBoy · 12/07/2023 11:05

Freefall212 · Yesterday 19:46

I do not think Castor is male. I believe they have DSD which is a different biological sex than being male.

Some people believe in fairies and unicorns, some people believe that the Earth is flat. Like you, they are wrong.

There is the female ex and the male sex, no others. Caster Semanya is not some other non-male / non-female sex. It doesn't exist. It has been stated many times (along with supporting links) that he has male chromosomes, testes and a DSD existing only in males.

I'm sorry that you prefer feelings and a lack of knowledge over irrefutable bio-medical facts.

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 11:09

FelineGood76 · 12/07/2023 05:49

Indeed.
Total ignorance and willfull stupidity in the face of facts. This is a person literally sticking their fingers in their ears and la,la,la-ing their way through any argument that destroys their mantra.
Try telling a 5ARD man that they are not 100% male.
You really have no clue how DSDs work do you?
There is no third sex, no third gamete, no fucking spectrum. You cannot be something other than male or female.
You have a cheek talking about science and fact when your grasp of basic reproductive and genetic concepts is tenuous at best.

What about individuals with Swyer syndrome? https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

Swyer syndrome

Swyer syndrome - Symptoms, Causes, Treatment | NORD

Learn about Swyer syndrome, including symptoms, causes, and treatments. If you or a loved one is affected by this condition, visit NORD to find resources and

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 11:10

Why does the idea that it is possible - rarely - for a person to exist who is not definitively male or female make you so angry?

SinnerBoy · 12/07/2023 11:12

aseriesofstillimages · Today 11:10

Why does the idea that it is possible - rarely - for a person to exist who is not definitively male or female make you so angry?

Please point to a single post which states that.

ditalini · 12/07/2023 11:15

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 11:09

What about individuals with Swyer syndrome? https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/

Do you not think women with Swyer syndrome are fully female?

NotBadConsidering · 12/07/2023 11:16

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 11:10

Why does the idea that it is possible - rarely - for a person to exist who is not definitively male or female make you so angry?

Semenya is 100% male so it’s not really relevant.

aseriesofstillimages · 12/07/2023 11:17

ditalini · 12/07/2023 11:15

Do you not think women with Swyer syndrome are fully female?

They have XY chromosomes and gonads which are neither ovaries nor testes - so purely biologically speaking, no. Of course, it is up to them how they identify.