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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Miss Netherlands 2023:

121 replies

mrshoho · 09/07/2023 17:26

Slow hand clap for the male winner of Miss Universe Netherlands 2023. Don't know why women would enter these things anyway but more so than ever a reason to just hand the whole thing to the men from now on.

OP posts:
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8
MowingTheTerf · 10/07/2023 23:23

Neverinamonthofsundays · 10/07/2023 23:03

Oh look a chick with a dick has won a perv comp. Lovely.

I would hazard a guess and say that the rules probably state that you have to lose the penis before you can enter, which is a lot more than many sports require you to do. At least it shows a level of commitment.

Scissor · 10/07/2023 23:23

smilesup · 10/07/2023 22:51

I would quite like all of the beauty bollocks to be taken over by men and we can leave them to it.

Yes please. Leave them to it.
Although it could be fun to start a male equivalent? They might then solve World Peace.

Neverinamonthofsundays · 11/07/2023 00:03

MowingTheTerf · 10/07/2023 23:23

I would hazard a guess and say that the rules probably state that you have to lose the penis before you can enter, which is a lot more than many sports require you to do. At least it shows a level of commitment.

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Has he had the surgery though because at years young I cannot imagine it.

Neverinamonthofsundays · 11/07/2023 00:03

Fucking number lock, 22 years young.

mirax · 11/07/2023 02:13

sanluca · 10/07/2023 10:19

India and Venezuela are the leading countries with the most winners. For women this can lead to a vast improvement of their lives, often from poor backgrounds. Giving male people these opportunities takes away from these women.

I think beauty pageant are sexist stupid competitions but I also see that I come from a western priviliged viewpoint and for women in developing, extremely sexist, countries this can make a world of difference.

Please dont repeat this patronising claptrap. ALL the winners from India are from elite upper middle class, fair skinned groups. These contestants join to build a career, a brand, catch the eye of wealthy men and they use the plight of poor women to build their status. Beauty contest with their Barbie/disneyified beauty standards are welcome to transwomen, the more the better! It is telling that short women, fat women, disabled women, older women do not meet the standards of these "beauty" contests but skinny men do.

mirax · 11/07/2023 02:15

smilesup · 10/07/2023 22:51

I would quite like all of the beauty bollocks to be taken over by men and we can leave them to it.

High Five Nbc GIF by Brooklyn Nine-Nine

Absolutely.

Pinkisthesword · 11/07/2023 08:02

Having seen a friend's daughter exposed to trans ideology and subsequently going down the trans man path (so she can escape the stereotypical hyper feminity forces on her by her mother) at beauty pageants I'd say allowing males to infiltrate this previous female space is a bad idea.
Plenty of vulnerable and unhappy children, with pushy parents and eating disorders, body dysphoria there. Not a good idea to let the ideals of trans euphoria in.

WickedSerious · 11/07/2023 08:17

MowingTheTerf · 10/07/2023 23:23

I would hazard a guess and say that the rules probably state that you have to lose the penis before you can enter, which is a lot more than many sports require you to do. At least it shows a level of commitment.

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His dick would still be there somewhere,just flayed and inverted.

Soontobe60 · 11/07/2023 08:21

sanluca · 10/07/2023 10:19

India and Venezuela are the leading countries with the most winners. For women this can lead to a vast improvement of their lives, often from poor backgrounds. Giving male people these opportunities takes away from these women.

I think beauty pageant are sexist stupid competitions but I also see that I come from a western priviliged viewpoint and for women in developing, extremely sexist, countries this can make a world of difference.

“sex work” is also purported to be a way that poor women can vastly improve their lives. Should we be celebrating this?
”Never mind that you’re poor love, sell your body to a few blokes then you will be able to feed the kids” really isn’t empowering.

Soontobe60 · 11/07/2023 08:22

mirax · 11/07/2023 02:13

Please dont repeat this patronising claptrap. ALL the winners from India are from elite upper middle class, fair skinned groups. These contestants join to build a career, a brand, catch the eye of wealthy men and they use the plight of poor women to build their status. Beauty contest with their Barbie/disneyified beauty standards are welcome to transwomen, the more the better! It is telling that short women, fat women, disabled women, older women do not meet the standards of these "beauty" contests but skinny men do.

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Well said 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 11/07/2023 08:24

Thank goodness the thread is only 4 pages

won’t take me long to read the whole thing and find where anyone has been celebrating this

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 11/07/2023 08:24

might need the definition of celebrate 🤔

RebelliousCow · 11/07/2023 08:27

mirax · 11/07/2023 02:15

Absolutely.

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I'd give the implications of that sentiment some more thought, personally.

Everything that belongs to women is being appropriated by men; that's not acceptable - even if you don't like or approve of beauty competitions.

What this effectively says is " there is nothing you can do, not even just stand there and look pretty, that I, as a transwoman, cannot do better than you".

And that is an extra big slap in the face for women in countries which still place high value on female beauy in this way.

RebelliousCow · 11/07/2023 08:30

Soontobe60 · 11/07/2023 08:21

“sex work” is also purported to be a way that poor women can vastly improve their lives. Should we be celebrating this?
”Never mind that you’re poor love, sell your body to a few blokes then you will be able to feed the kids” really isn’t empowering.

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Personally think the point, and the issue, is more about female erasure than the politics of race or class.

Ofcourseshecan · 11/07/2023 08:32

CovertImage · 09/07/2023 19:46

Same here. A lot of people on this thread are saying exactly this, that "men can have it". It's like they're blind to every small encroachment into women's stuff

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Yes. It’s just another example of “men are better at everything — including womaning”

Ofcourseshecan · 11/07/2023 08:33

Ooops, RebelliousCow — same thought, slower fingers!

Chersfrozenface · 11/07/2023 08:34

DysonSpheres · 10/07/2023 22:48

How is this person the first female billionaire to own a beauty pageant then??

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Just a note. The owner Anne Jakrajutatip is not female, but transgender, so born male.

Brefugee · 11/07/2023 08:38

JulieHoney · 10/07/2023 13:10

The rules specify that transwomen can enter and have doen for over a decade, so I don't think women are participating under the misapprehension it's a single sex competition.

In many women's events there are inherent biological advantages for male participants, or social/cultural barriers women face that males don't. In those cases it is wrong to disadvantage women to include natal males (transwomen)

Where we're measuring femininity, as gender critical people surely we accept men/males/transwomen (delete as appropriate) are welcome to be as feminine as they like, aren't we?

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it's a good point and if it's been 10 years already there is no cause for women to complain (entrants) and i wonder if any are (openly or behind the scenes)

The owner is a Thai businesswoman. is she trans?

If we accept that gender is a stereotype, and that beauty pagents are about performative femininity - that's a gender stereotype. And i agree with pp that i can't care too much if a man or a woman wins it. I would like to know more statistics: what percentage of trans women enter, what percentage of the prizes they take etc etc. Because then i could assess for myself if the judges are "being kind" or if they are all being measured with the same metrics.

Chersfrozenface · 11/07/2023 08:41

The owner is a Thai businesswoman. is she trans?

Yes.

Brefugee · 11/07/2023 08:46

RebelliousCow · 11/07/2023 08:30

Personally think the point, and the issue, is more about female erasure than the politics of race or class.

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genocide, even?

Floisme · 11/07/2023 08:48

Is the contest open to both women and men on an equal footing? If it is then yes, that would change my view.

If it's only open to women and transwomen then no.

I believe the Women's Institute now accept transwomen but not men. Is that correct? Because I seem to remember a series of threads objecting to that.

RebelliousCow · 11/07/2023 08:50

Brefugee · 11/07/2023 08:38

it's a good point and if it's been 10 years already there is no cause for women to complain (entrants) and i wonder if any are (openly or behind the scenes)

The owner is a Thai businesswoman. is she trans?

If we accept that gender is a stereotype, and that beauty pagents are about performative femininity - that's a gender stereotype. And i agree with pp that i can't care too much if a man or a woman wins it. I would like to know more statistics: what percentage of trans women enter, what percentage of the prizes they take etc etc. Because then i could assess for myself if the judges are "being kind" or if they are all being measured with the same metrics.

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It should not be called 'Miss Universe" then - if it is open to males as well as females.

Personally, think this is hugely insulting to actual women. Can they not have anything for themselves?

'Feminine' can be something as simple as having 'a womanly walk', graceful movements. This need not be an act or a performance, just a natural way of moving.

Some women are naturally 'feminine', and because it is natural to them they do it better than any male could. Males are just cos-playing and taking the piss. I don't get how you don't think this is insulting?

RebelliousCow · 11/07/2023 08:52

Brefugee · 11/07/2023 08:46

genocide, even?

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Explain, please?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 11/07/2023 08:52

Ofcourseshecan · 11/07/2023 08:32

Yes. It’s just another example of “men are better at everything — including womaning”

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But only if you think womaning is performing femininity

I don’t, so it’s fine with me for men to compete in ‘how feminine can you be’ competitions

literally the only thing that makes me a woman is my female body, not whether I wish for world peace or look good in a one piece bathing suit

I really don’t see the issue with men getting in on those things too

Floisme · 11/07/2023 08:54

I don't see an issue with men getting in on it either. Providing it's open to all men on the same basis as women. Is it?