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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“If you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face!” Speech at Trans Pride London 8 July 2023

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 09/07/2023 00:46

Sarah Jane Baker, on the Trans Pride stage, saying

“If you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face!”

to a cheering crowd :)

https://twitter.com/unpopulargenz/status/1677790606561628160

NB to MNHQ the video shows this being said. It is not just an allegation being shared.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
74
Froodwithatowel · 15/07/2023 20:23

Quite. As with the whole 'if you do not validate my identity you erase me, you are saying I do not exist'.

Love, if your identity relies on someone else's performative fiction to you and can't exist without it, then it wasn't your identity, was it? And your existential crisis must be horrible for you, but I'm not a therapist or your mum and it's not my problem. I've actually got a life and troubles of my own.

SunnyEgg · 15/07/2023 20:26

I remember learning in my degree that language determines thinking

The language being used and forced on us is a way to compel compliance

The battle over words is crucial

I can’t believe the media uses culture wars without blinking

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2023 20:30

Like many damaged and dangerous men, Baker appears to have had a dreadful upbringing. We can weep for the child that was without excusing or indulging the adult.

I get the impression that SJB has been treated as some sort of mascot or exotic pet by those surrounding and platforming him. With all the praise and attention heaped upon him, it was no wonder he was escalating.

Police and probation services should have anticipated intervened well before this.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/07/2023 20:33

@TinselAngel I have zero sympathy for him, I have no idea what's going on in his head. He deserves what's coming to him. And the people cheering him, I've got nothing but contempt for them.

dcbc1234 · 15/07/2023 20:36

TinselAngel · 15/07/2023 16:14

I think your sympathy could be far better directed elsewhere.

Yes I used to be 'a bleeding heart liberal' but life has taught me better. When are women going to stop feeling sorry for men who harm others? Think of his poor victims fgs. Why has he even been let out of prison in the first place?

dcbc1234 · 15/07/2023 20:41

RebelliousCow · 15/07/2023 18:42

Typically, they are trying to pin the arrest on Suella Braverman. So predictable!

Good on her if she has had some influence. It won't be Sadiq Khan behind it that is for sure.

Catsanfan · 15/07/2023 21:20

That response from the met caused me to burst into tears. Who the hell is advocating for women? We need to do it ourselves, let's organise a march?

JanesLittleGirl · 15/07/2023 21:50

A violent criminal who is out on license breaches their license conditions. Nothing to see here. Just move on.

IwantToRetire · 16/07/2023 00:32

Why would the Home Secretary telling the police to do their job properly be "influence" or politically motivated?

Social media made it clear that some woke junior who said it was a "no crime" didn't know what they were talking about. And she picked up on it.

Its this whole double standard again. Or rather the notion that they are all so special that acceptable behaviour, complying with the law and your probation conditions, are not required of them.

And I am afraid every time I see an instance like this is the very strong sense that underlying these actions is deeply ingrained misogyny and a complete lack of respect for women, let alone that they should have rights.

Today we call them incels, but they used to be called unreconstructed male chauvinists pigs.

OP posts:
fromorbit · 16/07/2023 01:47

RebelliousCow · 15/07/2023 18:59

Rowan Moore has a trans identified daughter.

Of course. I was wondering if there was a personal connection.

The interesting thing is at least Moore bothered to address Baker issue at all while coming up with a biased take. Not many articles on it from that perspective. Most on the TRA side are not discussing it seems, like they do every time their side does something truly dreadful as opposed to misgendering someone. There will be conflict between those who want Baker as a martyr and those prefer this whole thing is forgotten.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 01:51

Pleased to see that Baker has been returned to jail.
Is this a watershed moment a la Bryson di we think?

PermanentTemporary · 16/07/2023 05:48

BoreOfWhabylon · 15/07/2023 20:30

Like many damaged and dangerous men, Baker appears to have had a dreadful upbringing. We can weep for the child that was without excusing or indulging the adult.

I get the impression that SJB has been treated as some sort of mascot or exotic pet by those surrounding and platforming him. With all the praise and attention heaped upon him, it was no wonder he was escalating.

Police and probation services should have anticipated intervened well before this.

Exactly this.

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 08:16

Has this violent misogynist definitely been returned to prison or ‘just’ arrested? I can’t see any media coverage or police statement about prison? That should be getting huge coverage if so?

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 08:37

Also want to say how much I agree with the insightful comments on fragile identity and antisocial and solipsistic behaviours in previous posts. You express it much more clearly than I ever could, thank you.

This Trans ‘Pride’ should strip that ‘Pride’ name from the event, because it’s so shameful how their platform is used. Violence against anyone is never what a gay Pride would have advocated for.

This culturally- defining explicit gathering for the expression of ‘love and rage’ aka incitement to violent misogyny, is terrifying.

Is that toxic culture what young people who identify as trans and non binary have got to immerse themselves in and look up to, as their community as they seek to find their adult tribe? And is that toxic culture what the young LGB kids are going to be facing as they seek to find their own community, their own adult tribe?

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 08:46

dcbc1234 · 15/07/2023 20:41

Good on her if she has had some influence. It won't be Sadiq Khan behind it that is for sure.

I can't even imagine it is her. She's simply been doorstopped and asked about it. The numerous letters from organisations such as Sex Matters is what will have done the job.

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 08:52

SunnyEgg · 15/07/2023 20:26

I remember learning in my degree that language determines thinking

The language being used and forced on us is a way to compel compliance

The battle over words is crucial

I can’t believe the media uses culture wars without blinking

Most people use the term 'culture war' in an unthinking way - but if you dig down into the issues which are at the heart of this so called 'war', they are, at heart, are about values and about culture: and about how we see or define reality. Really fundamental, existential type stuff - which is why emotions are so heightened.

IncomingTraffic · 16/07/2023 09:28

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 08:52

Most people use the term 'culture war' in an unthinking way - but if you dig down into the issues which are at the heart of this so called 'war', they are, at heart, are about values and about culture: and about how we see or define reality. Really fundamental, existential type stuff - which is why emotions are so heightened.

I don’t agree that at heart it’s about culture and values - unless you accept extreme postmodern type definitions that turn everything into that. Fundamental, existential stuff is not ‘cultural differences’.

The issue is closer to being ontological than anything else. A lot of it is about the nature of being and reality, and TRAs want to shift that. They want us to believe that reality is constituted by how individuals feel and that men can be women because they feel that way.

Objecting to that is not a clash of values or mere cultural difference. Nor is objecting to the consequences of the TRA arguments because they infringe on other people’s rights and lives in all sorts of ways.

Emotions are heightened because the consequences are significant.

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 09:36

IncomingTraffic · 16/07/2023 09:28

I don’t agree that at heart it’s about culture and values - unless you accept extreme postmodern type definitions that turn everything into that. Fundamental, existential stuff is not ‘cultural differences’.

The issue is closer to being ontological than anything else. A lot of it is about the nature of being and reality, and TRAs want to shift that. They want us to believe that reality is constituted by how individuals feel and that men can be women because they feel that way.

Objecting to that is not a clash of values or mere cultural difference. Nor is objecting to the consequences of the TRA arguments because they infringe on other people’s rights and lives in all sorts of ways.

Emotions are heightened because the consequences are significant.

But the so callec 'culture wars' are about more than issues relating to sex and gender: like it or not, those post-modernistic theories about society really are at the root of many of today's conflicts.

Look at the U.S - the home of Queer Theory and Critical Race Theory. these two theories are at the root of most of these existential struggles.

IncomingTraffic · 16/07/2023 09:38

We don’t have to accept post-modern theory’s framing of this as ‘culture war’ though. In any area.

It’s only a ‘culture war’ if you look at it through po-mo terminology.

SunnyEgg · 16/07/2023 09:53

RebelliousCow · 16/07/2023 08:52

Most people use the term 'culture war' in an unthinking way - but if you dig down into the issues which are at the heart of this so called 'war', they are, at heart, are about values and about culture: and about how we see or define reality. Really fundamental, existential type stuff - which is why emotions are so heightened.

I don’t think culture a strong enough term

It’s a societal war or wrangle

As in do we divide society by sex or gender?

It’s fundamental and basic and underpins laws, and culture.

Culture is just one of the things impacted

SunnyEgg · 16/07/2023 10:05

IncomingTraffic · 16/07/2023 09:28

I don’t agree that at heart it’s about culture and values - unless you accept extreme postmodern type definitions that turn everything into that. Fundamental, existential stuff is not ‘cultural differences’.

The issue is closer to being ontological than anything else. A lot of it is about the nature of being and reality, and TRAs want to shift that. They want us to believe that reality is constituted by how individuals feel and that men can be women because they feel that way.

Objecting to that is not a clash of values or mere cultural difference. Nor is objecting to the consequences of the TRA arguments because they infringe on other people’s rights and lives in all sorts of ways.

Emotions are heightened because the consequences are significant.

I agree with this, which is well said, and I wouldn’t say post modernist theory even can override it.

It is Fundamental, existential stuff is not ‘cultural differences’.

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 10:14

IncomingTraffic · 16/07/2023 09:28

I don’t agree that at heart it’s about culture and values - unless you accept extreme postmodern type definitions that turn everything into that. Fundamental, existential stuff is not ‘cultural differences’.

The issue is closer to being ontological than anything else. A lot of it is about the nature of being and reality, and TRAs want to shift that. They want us to believe that reality is constituted by how individuals feel and that men can be women because they feel that way.

Objecting to that is not a clash of values or mere cultural difference. Nor is objecting to the consequences of the TRA arguments because they infringe on other people’s rights and lives in all sorts of ways.

Emotions are heightened because the consequences are significant.

This is a great post in a really interesting discussion, thank you.

It always clangs for me though when thinking about it as a value. If it was a universal value - everyone's feelings define reality and everyone's feelings should be equally respected and accounted for - I'd mind far, far less.

But it isn't that at all. It's merely pretending to be.

What it is in fact, is an attempt to force on society that SOME special people's feelings define everyone else's reality, whether or not they consent, with consequences for having a reality or will or thoughts of your own, or inconvenient feelings. It creates a two tier society, of the 'do exactly what pleases me or it'll be God help you' people and the rest who get to live with 'shut your mouth and serve or I'll call the police'. The served and the servants.

This is not a value, it's just, like all the rest of it, 'kind', 'inclusion' all the other appropriated pretty figleaf marketing words, intended to fool well intentioned, non disordered, trusting people who care about others, into belief that there is a fair and justified social contract to participate in.

In actual fact, what this group are aiming to recreate is pretty much old history of massive social inequality, just with them as the ones with all the power to enjoy abusing. Except it isn't really that well thought through. It's about wanting power and control - detransitioners talk about this a lot. It's about not wanting to have to follow social or behavioural standards and responsibilities for others to do what they say in providing services including sex. It's about incontinence of every kind and silencing anyone from saying 'no' or resisting while being abused.

It's like the 'everyone chooses their own words and everyone else should respect their choice of identity' - except you old bags who are cis, shut up and serve.

'Everyone should use the spaces in which they are comfortable and untraumatised and free to be themselves safely' - except you old bags, reframe your trauma and get on with undressing in front of this male who doesn't want his props answering back.

It's nothing social or cultural or value based. It's what happens when a nice society loses all track of boundaries and indulges people with no social responsibility or capacity for empathy, compassion, any thought of anything but themselves and their own wants and needs. There is no answer to it but powerful boundaries. No one normally functional wants to see anyone else harmed, unhappy, without access or equality - women want this for everyone. The TQ+ lobby is functioning on people who do want to see others harmed, unhappy, without access, without equality, who are actively violent and without the capacity to manage their emotions or behaviours, and like children, cannot cope with 'fair'. They have to 'win' by seeing that others have lost and are hurting. It is not enough to meet their own needs, the harming of women's equality and enjoying their protests and resistance is a part of it.

This is a complex game that should never have been allowed to roll this far. Again: massive safeguarding fail on every level. Society is going to have to learn how to be nice and caring and inclusive, while having the strong boundaries that are necessary with someone not psychologically capable of reciprocation or appropriacy or consideration for others. We tend to get that around here because of the relationships board. LC, NC, managing abusive exes, we've got all these t shirts.

PonyPatter44 · 16/07/2023 10:42

Bloody hell, @Froodwithatowel , that is a fantastic post - measured, intelligent and reasonable. I take my hat off to you.

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 10:45

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 10:14

This is a great post in a really interesting discussion, thank you.

It always clangs for me though when thinking about it as a value. If it was a universal value - everyone's feelings define reality and everyone's feelings should be equally respected and accounted for - I'd mind far, far less.

But it isn't that at all. It's merely pretending to be.

What it is in fact, is an attempt to force on society that SOME special people's feelings define everyone else's reality, whether or not they consent, with consequences for having a reality or will or thoughts of your own, or inconvenient feelings. It creates a two tier society, of the 'do exactly what pleases me or it'll be God help you' people and the rest who get to live with 'shut your mouth and serve or I'll call the police'. The served and the servants.

This is not a value, it's just, like all the rest of it, 'kind', 'inclusion' all the other appropriated pretty figleaf marketing words, intended to fool well intentioned, non disordered, trusting people who care about others, into belief that there is a fair and justified social contract to participate in.

In actual fact, what this group are aiming to recreate is pretty much old history of massive social inequality, just with them as the ones with all the power to enjoy abusing. Except it isn't really that well thought through. It's about wanting power and control - detransitioners talk about this a lot. It's about not wanting to have to follow social or behavioural standards and responsibilities for others to do what they say in providing services including sex. It's about incontinence of every kind and silencing anyone from saying 'no' or resisting while being abused.

It's like the 'everyone chooses their own words and everyone else should respect their choice of identity' - except you old bags who are cis, shut up and serve.

'Everyone should use the spaces in which they are comfortable and untraumatised and free to be themselves safely' - except you old bags, reframe your trauma and get on with undressing in front of this male who doesn't want his props answering back.

It's nothing social or cultural or value based. It's what happens when a nice society loses all track of boundaries and indulges people with no social responsibility or capacity for empathy, compassion, any thought of anything but themselves and their own wants and needs. There is no answer to it but powerful boundaries. No one normally functional wants to see anyone else harmed, unhappy, without access or equality - women want this for everyone. The TQ+ lobby is functioning on people who do want to see others harmed, unhappy, without access, without equality, who are actively violent and without the capacity to manage their emotions or behaviours, and like children, cannot cope with 'fair'. They have to 'win' by seeing that others have lost and are hurting. It is not enough to meet their own needs, the harming of women's equality and enjoying their protests and resistance is a part of it.

This is a complex game that should never have been allowed to roll this far. Again: massive safeguarding fail on every level. Society is going to have to learn how to be nice and caring and inclusive, while having the strong boundaries that are necessary with someone not psychologically capable of reciprocation or appropriacy or consideration for others. We tend to get that around here because of the relationships board. LC, NC, managing abusive exes, we've got all these t shirts.

Fantastic post.

This bit struck me:

They have to 'win' by seeing that others have lost and are hurting.

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