Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

Interesting tweet from Helen Joyce with some examples from apparently a Facebook doctors group:

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1677981650905440256?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

As she says "This is where the insanity of gender ideology leads."

I don’t think the issue is just whether tw are predatory, it’s more nuanced than that.

It’s the feeling of male gaze being brought into female spaces… women are still socialised into feeling embarrassment and even shame about their bodies and bodily functions. We are taught that women should be attractive at all times to people who have a penis. It’s a very real deep feeling for many women and girls. So a tw saying their penis is different doesn’t over ride a lifetime of socialisation and cultural experience.

Also many women are uncomfortable getting changed in front of people they feel might have a sexual attraction towards them- they just want to get dressed without having to feel observed.

Yes and it’s dignity and privacy plus the safeguarding

Wtf. That is shockingly disgusting, even for these type of men. That poor doctor having to deal with this fetish maniac.

Yes, just wanted to add, I agree that it's not all about safety although that's obviously important. The girls DON'T WANT individual cubicles so that they are not seen at all. They have no problem getting changed in front of each other and they like the camaraderie (which the boys still have!) The TW complained about not being part of this, ironically not understanding that it is the TW's presence which has changed the whole dynamic! The whole thing has been a big lesson on how girls are being taught they matter less. Just to reiterate: the TW can change alone or with the men without any fear or embarrassment but apparently this is not enough.

@Fiftyisthenewsixty anyone who insists other people get changed in front of them and throws a strop when they say ‘no thank you’ is so extremely worrying, and so far in the wrong that anyone accepting it must be frankly off their head!

@TempestuousBehaviour You'd think so, wouldn't you? But sadly not!!

Your example, @Fiftyisthenewsixty absolutely demonstrates the "safety" fallacy, and how most of the demands of modern and radical trans movement are about the demand for validation and the forcing of their issues (their identity beliefs, mental health crisis, fetish or whatever it may be) on everyone around them, but in particular, the people they want to be - females. This TW has presumably claimed to not be safe using the men's changing rooms. So has been allowed to use the women's. The young women/girls have, in turn, decided that they are no longer safe (by which I mean both physically and emotionally in terms of their dignity and privacy). They have chosen to change elsewhere. I presume they haven't complained or been mean, just absented themselves quietly from the communal changing area. TW is now kicking up a fuss, but why? He's got what he wanted, his "safety". But that's not what he really wanted. He wanted validation from women for his female identity. He wanted to enact whatever fantasy he plays out in his head about what goes on in female changing rooms. And, more worryingly, perhaps he wanted to get his thrills from being in the presence of undressed females. And somehow, he and his supporters believe these young women have no right NOT to be involved in his wants. And they have been winning too, because these girls have been shamed into going along with it, and in some cases, threatened with being expelled from their sport. Riley Gains's testimony on these issues (vis a vis Will/Lia Thomas) are a case in point.

"I appreciate your measured tone, but the idea that you ‘eye roll’ at your OH is a little patronising, no?"

So @bingbangboshbash, you appreciate my measured tone so much you have to accuse me of being patronising? It's not difficult to spot why posters are responding to you in the way they are 🤔.

And, FYI, my OH loves it when I eyeroll at him. And he's an EX-Guardian reader. Like many others who find doing the zeitgeist thing so wearing.

I understand that position completely. But I don’t see it as a male gaze if it is a ‘genuine’ TW for want of a better phrase. So our positions will never align.

Ok, cool. Your OH like la being patronised. Is it a fetish?

But I don’t see it as a male gaze if it is a ‘genuine’ TW for want of a better phrase.

What makes one male "genuine" and another not? Why is what they think about themselves anything to do with me when I feel humiliated and have my boundaries by a male inappropriately in a female space?

Inappropriately violated

By a male in a female space

As pp said, you just put the feelings of these males over the feelings of women, for whatever reason. It's not an unusual position to take. But do own it.

Since we all agree you can’t change sex why isn’t it the male gaze?

There was no infant, so no problem there.

i do understand someone who identifies as a woman wanting to lactate more than I understand someone who identifies as a man wanting to give birth. It seems more logical.

again, I come from a different take - I believe in the concept of transgender. You don’t. That’s ok. Different strokes.

But I don’t see it as a male gaze if it is a ‘genuine’ TW for want of a better phrase.
So can you explain what actually happened between last year when said TW defined as male and now? And how are the girls meant to perceive this change?

Yes, it's clear that your ideological belief makes you handwave away any damage to anyone else.

Fringe ideological belief, I should say.

Because I think ‘gaze’ comes from identity more than sex. I don’t think sex is completely irrelevant, but I believe social conditioning and gender identity are paramount

No, I can’t. And I’ve already said I don’t think this person should be in the changing room. Why won’t you listen to what I’m saying? It’s really weird how much you seem to be blaming me for what’s happening to your club.

I believe social conditioning and gender identity are paramount
So presumably over 45 years of being socially-confitioned as a man and having a male gender identity is more important to bear in mind than a year of self-identifying as a woman? Finally we agree on something!

What about the women in the changing room who don’t think this.

You mentioned trauma earlier. Why does male trauma override female trauma for you?

There’s a very important person not being considered here in all these ‘desires’ and wants. The welfare of the baby should be paramount. Males taking off label drugs and feeding the resultant liquid to babies is not ‘best for baby’. At worst it will actively harm the baby. At best, the effect is not known.

Females taking cross sex hormones and then getting pregnant is not best for baby. Some tm have accidentally become pregnant while actually on testosterone. We already known that this is not healthy for the baby.

Do we think that all maternity advice will now be ‘do what you like, take whichever drugs you like, eat/drink what you like’? If not, why is a particular group being facilitated to do that and not lectured and shamed for their actions that are very likely to lead to long term harm for the baby?