Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

Already said that I don’t think 1 person’s wishes trumps 20 peoples. But I don’t agree with shitting on one marginalised group or another. Not sure there is a way everyone gets what they want, so again, I refer you to my suggestion that you engage with the club. I think a PP suggested you had a case under equality law. Perhaps they can help?

As for the other question, I’m afraid ‘I don’t think this is a problem’ v the advice from the American Medical Association and Am Assoc of Paediatricians doesn’t quite cut it for me. I think I’ll remain in the position of listening to the experts.

Are you American? I'm afraid (or rather very glad) that not all the experts are of that opinion. In fact, in Europe medical experts in several countries have warned that puberty blockers are dangerous. They (and I) believe that children with dysphoria deserve a higher quality of care rather than being subjected to experimental treatments which we now know are harmful.

But I don’t agree with shitting on one marginalised group or another
Why is requiring a male to change with other males "shitting on" them? What would you call forcing girls to change with males against their will? Or forcing muslims to go against their religious rules? Oh right, they don't matter to you.

I just don't think this poster knows much of what they are talking about, I don't think that necessarily means they are American.

In prisons both in the U.K. and abroad, women have been forced to shower naked with men who say they are women. They have been punished for objecting on the grounds that they are men. Anyone who can handwave that away, isn't the moral person they claim to be.

I just listened to this and found it very shallow.

Freddy McConnell went to court in an attempt to be named as father rather than mother on the older child's birth certificate. Freddy lost of course because the law is very clear on this even within the GRA - the woman who gives birth to you is your mother, regardless of how she identifies and even if she has a GRC. She is not your father.

Freddy refused to register the child's birth because of this court decision. At the time of Freddy's second pregnancy the older child (aged almost 4) still had not been registered. The courts allowed some kind of special arrangement for the child to get a passport even without a birth certificate. This was so that the child could accompany Freddy to Sweden for the second birth. In Sweden you can apparently register just as 'parent'.

I won't link directly because it'll get deleted but if you google 'Help get Freddy's baby a birth certificate' you will find the old crowdfunder page:

Due to outdated English laws, SJ (now almost four) still does not have a birth certificate. Transgender parents have no legal recognition in our country, which means that, even though Freddy is legally male "for all purposes" (GRA 2004), his only option is to register as SJ’s ‘mother’. This in turn would mean SJ going through life with an inaccurate and confusing birth certificate – listing his father (full name Alfred) as his 'mother'.

In the event, Freddy required an emergency c section and gave birth for the second time in the UK.

Does anyone know whether either of these children have a birth certificate yet?

Failing to register your child's birth because of your ideology is dodgy as fuck, whether it's because of your strange ideas about 'sovereignty' and the relevance of obscure maritime law, or because of your strange ideas about sex, gender and motherhood.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/if_a_child_has_not_been_register

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/23/man-refused-to-register-sons-birth-high-court

The judge in the case reported in the Guardian said, 'It is manifestly in [a child's] best interest for his birth to be registered, in order that he may be recognised as a citizen and entitled to the benefits of such citizenship.'

Children who are not registered are at risk because legally they don't exist so they don't show up on anyone's radar.

Freddy's two will be fine because Freddy loves the limelight so everyone knows of these two children's existence but what kind of example has Freddy set? Are there other mothers who have failed to register their children because they believe themselves to be fathers? Maybe really vulnerable messed up young women who might not even have publicly come out as 'trans'?

The number of unregistered births in the UK is a known unknown.

Not sure there is a way everyone gets what they want

Why is it the responsibility of women to move over just because a male doesn't want to share with other men? Why shouldn't the male be told that no, on this occasion, women come first?

why do you insist on deciding my position? That I don’t care about Muslims or girls? You are obsessed with this one aspect of the debate. Like I have said several times, I’m ok with whatever the majority want with respect to single sex / shared spaces. I didn’t change the rules in your club and I don’t much care either way. It’s not my decision, so I don’t know why you are going on and on about it at me. It’s weird. At best I’m ambivalent about shared spaces like toilets, and against any sort of communal changing / showering situation but I’m just not on board with calling TW males and men and making dog whistle posts about them wanting to shower with girls. It’s unnecessary and cruel. I also don’t understand the hysteria about penises being behind doors like some PP was on about. This doesn’t make me poorly educated or not as well informed as you, it just means I’ve evaluated what I’ve read and my lives experience and come to a different conclusion. That’s ok, you know.

why do you insist on deciding my position?
It's called extrapolating from the data. You say you believe in the majority choosing but no matter how many females object they can always be overruled by ONE male. Why?

Failing to register your child's birth because of your ideology is dodgy as fuck, whether it's because of your strange ideas about 'sovereignty' and the relevance of obscure maritime law, or because of your strange ideas about sex, gender and motherhood.

Quite.

Rylan Clark seems like a nice enough chap. I prefer him on the radio where I am not distracted by his giant plasticky looking head.

More generally, I have been slowly going off R4 since they shat on Jenni Murray.

You say you believe in the majority choosing

If the majority of women were asked, they would say no. Because in all polling, it's clear that penises are a dealbreaker, and most of these males have them.

and making dog whistle posts about them wanting to shower with girls
Dog whistle? Unlike you this actually affects my family and people I know. Damn right I'm angry.

"I know they can't actually change sex, because science"

"I'm not ok with them being called males by women who don't believe in my ideology"

It's not a rational, balanced position to take.

It’s already been pointed out to you that this approach is heavily contested, and the trend of medical opinion is Europe is away from intervention.
if you aren’t going to engage with the complexities of the picture and keep on bellowing the same stuff, ignoring that “the experts” are not all of one mind, you honestly can’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

I mean, I’ve literally said that I agree with the majority decision. Why have the 20 girls wants been overruled by the one other person? I don’t fucking know. Ask your club. You know I don’t run the club, right?

I can only presume that the club has decided to segregate spaces on gender rather than sex. That’s their decision to make. A PP suggested it is illegal, so why don’t you challenge the decision?

was there a vote? Was there a clear majority for sex based segregation? I don’t know.

I’m not the president of the club, you know.

I have never suggested getting rid of single sex spaces - I have suggested that if it is an issue, a democratic process is followed to decide. If, as you believe, all women will vote to keep them separate, then happy days.

All I’ve ever said on the other side is that I personally have no issue with shared toilets and changing rooms as long as there are private cubicles.

oh, and how vile it is to refer to TW as males and suggest they want to shower with girls in a dog whistle attempt to imply deviancy.

oh, and how vile it is to refer to TW as males

How would you have us refer to them?

and how vile it is to refer to TW as males

But in pp you stated people couldn’t change sex, so they must be males

Sexual assault and harassment, usually of women, is male pattern behaviour, not female. That's not a "dog whistle" it's just reality. That's why generally people respect that men don't use women's spaces, and why we have them in the first place.

To me, any male person in a female space is a red flag, as they don't respect boundaries.

So, to be clear, the experts aren’t in agreement, but the experts I agree with are wrong and the experts you agree with are right? Ok, cool. Makes sense.

I really fucking hope you’re right, because the thought of more people dying because of bullshit republicans controlling other people’s bodies is abhorrent.

Also, to be clear - I believe that the laws will have a deleterious effect on mental health of young trans people. I make no judgement on the interventions themselves. That is far beyond my expertise or scope. Unlike all you doctors and psychiatrists, of course.

There is very little evidence for the claim that restricting child "transitioning" will lead to more suicides. It's been demonstrated in more than one study that trans people are more likely to commit suicide after transitioning, not before.

Of course I agree that these people need much better mental health care. It isn't kind to tell them that everyone will accept them as the opposite sex, because it's not true. A little more truth, and fewer lies would go a long way to healthier attitudes on this issue.

and how vile it is to refer to TW as males
Why? It's factual and unambiguous. By the way, none of the TW I know deny being male. I'll let them know you think they're vile. Or rather I won't because I believe in treating others with respect.