Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

I asked this earlier: What do you define as "transitioned"?

But you have no basis for that belief. You choose to accept one account of the position, while ignoring the debate and complexity, and the fact that there is no evidence base to support the interventions you think should be permitted.
as I said, you can’t expect anyone to take that seriously. You are just cherry picking to suit your bias. There is no evidence for the position you support.

As far as I am concerned any male who knowingly enters a female space, especially one where women will be in various states of undress, is a predator. And before anyone mentions cleaners/repairmen, signs are displayed warning women and those men check the area is clear before entering.

I didn’t say I think the interventions should be permitted. I said that I believe the AMA / AAP when they warn that the laws will have a negative effect on the mental health & suicide rates of trans youth. I specifically said - in the very post you have quoted here - that I made absolutely no judgment on the interventions because that is beyond my expertise. I’ve now said that twice.

The basis of my belief is that I listen to medical experts more than randoms on the internet. You have not been able to share any information that counters the AMA/AAP warning on adverse mental health effects. You have talked about the interventions being controversial and not accepted practice in Europe. That is not the same thing.

And what of the laws that go further than banning puberty blockers to teens? What of the ones that make it illegal to provide transition assistance for people under 26? I asked (unanswered) what people thought of young women being denied sterilisation, in case they change their mind about having babies later. Surely refusing gender affirming treatment to someone of 25 is a similar thing.

Or the ones that make it illegal for teachers to use preferred pronouns without parental consent? Can’t you appreciate that these overreach and create a culture of transphobia that cannot be helpful for kids struggling with these issues. Whatever your views on trans - mental illness or social contagion or the latest attempt by the patriarchy to erase women - surely you can see that removing the agency of those at the heart of it is not the way to deal with it.

And on a more political note, the Republicans really don’t have a great track record when it comes to other people’s bodies.

Are there lots of Republicans on this thread? I confess I skimmed the earlier posts.

To answer the original OP - YABU for being "freaked out" at R4, as they've been peddling this and much other nonsense for a few years now.

I used to have R4 on as a constant in the background; after the past two years I've now turned it off. Which is a shame as they do still produce some 'worth listening to' stuff.

Ahem Bing. What do you define as "transitioned"? You frequently repeat the word as if it is a definite thing that can be defined.

I do not believe it is a thing.

Sorry, kiddo, I’m done with the 20 questions. I tried debating in good faith but now the ad hominem attacks have started and someone once told me that only those with nothing to add use those.

Kiddo?? Rude.

Isn’t it? Someone called me sweetheart on this thread. I mean, honestly.

YANBU. R4 has been ruined by the new generation of woke producers, like the rest of the BBC. I now no longer engage with any of it. Very sad.

They’ve lost a great deal.

It's always very telling when people won't define their terms.

Not something that tends to happen when people are "debating in good faith". Anyone can ask me what I mean by anything and I will tell them. I don't hide behind semantics and sophistry.

The right side of history, apparently. A violent man, convicted of kidnapping and torture, exhorting a crowd of angry, entitled males and their idiotic female supporters to punch women who tell them no in the face, like most of the women on this thread, but I'm sure it's all fine as he has a lovely skirt on:

twitter.com/unpopulargenz/status/1677790606561628160?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

This is a really good ex

Sorry ...

Good exploration of the many, multiple, complex issues with trans 'healthcare' today. Anyone who thinks their support for this is setting them up on the 'right side of history' would do well to read it.

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/a-pediatricians-manifesto-for-the

Very interesting to read this thread through this morning, on the whole it was very well argued on all sides. Main takeaways?

It seems everyone knows you can't change your biological sex (therefore a transwoman is male/a man and a transman remains female/a woman).

It seems no-one can explain what it means to transition. If there is no universally agreed and understood 'standard' for a transitioned person, how can ANYTHING be designed/legislated/imposed on both sexes?

Bish wrote very well in a liberal 'Guardian readerish' way and remained polite. I don't mean to insult Bish by mentioning the Guardian reader thing, but my OH is exactly this liberal/be kind/look after the poor suicidal minority folk (ex)Guardian reader and I hear him speak in exactly the same way as Bish does. OH gets eyerolls and frosty silences as debate is pointlessly circular.

People quoting the North American response to trans issues are wasting their breath. They are an outlier as much as Iran or certain African countries; neither are good examples of how to do trans...

Radio 4 has definitely IMO become too one sided in this debate and reflects a general exasperating trend across the BBC to appeal to younger generations in order to stay alive. Other broadcasters are available.

Thanks OP/all for an interesting thread. Perhaps @BoiledBeetle can do the book thing here?

Again, the total lack of awareness of what other medical authorities are doing, or of the lack of clarity and evidence in this area. And for some reason, total unwillingness to engage with this reality. Knee jerk assumption that because your political enemies are doing something, it must be wrong. It’s so frivolous.
I can only suggest you read the reports produced by Dr Cass, which will give you an appreciation of how weak the evidence base is to support any of the interventions you mention.

You won’t answer. Quelle surprise.

This is a good post

One thing that has stuck with me a bit is this idea a male person’s trauma is to be recognised over a female’s

Where does that come from?

Why does a minority male get the priority

None of you have answered the questions I’ve asked, or engaged with any of the counter arguments I have given. You pick on one aspect of anything I post and ignore the rest and have resorted to the very ad hominem attacks others accused me of. That is the sole reason I will no longer engage in the sealioning, not because I don’t have a position, or can’t think of anything to say.

I have an understanding of what I deem transitioning. I have read (most) of the Cass report, plus quite a lot around the American model, including those opposed eg Cantor.

But you have no interest in engaging with me and sharing opinions - you are the epitome of a closed-minded group existing in an echo chamber of hate.

Wow, the fact that he complained is very telling. Shows his motive clear as day.

Oh. Did I speak too soon?

They are male by definition though, every single one of them. That's just plain fact.

As for deviancy - that he complained about the women and girls not using the changing room with him indicates a desire to violate boundaries, don't you think? That he wants the women and girls to be included in his changing room intrusion, regardless of what any of them feel.

One thing that has stuck with me a bit is this idea a male person’s trauma is to be recognised over a female’s
Yes, this is perplexing to me. I think for a lot of people there is a hierarchy of worth/vulnerability that is very rigid. Thus in the example I gave, the girls would have a right to privacy if a 50 year old man wanted to shower with them, but they are "less vulnerable" than a 50 year old tw - who was a man last year and hasn't changed anything except hair length. I don't really understand the mental gymnastics one must do to make this make sense but many people seem to be able to. I guess a deep-seated deference to males lies at the heart of it.