Page 13 | Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

OnePotPolly · 2023-07-06T23:08:22+00:00

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies.. Which only women can do, in fact. And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs. And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions? Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By" I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past) But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me. What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air. Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . . Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 11:59

Bingbangbongbash · 08/07/2023 11:20

Perhaps you didn’t, but there are at least 2 posts on this thread likening me to a fox killing bloke because I defended the BBC and Guardian. I haven’t put forward my views on trans because last time I tried to engage in any sort of debate, I was, again, attacked for no reason - even though, actually, I’m not a believer in gender stereotypes, so probably have quite a lot of common ground here. You do your cause no good at all because instead of engaging with facts, studies, evidence, you present half-truths. Like the women above who talks about the liberal states in the US and their dangerous pro-trans agenda, yet makes no mention of the 13+ who have banned any kind of trans health care for minors, leaving, according to one article I read (Telegraph, I think), tens of thousands without appropriate support - a move condemned by the medical institutes of the USA.

That’s why people accuse you of spreading hate - you won’t ever discuss or try to understand the other side.

Which ad hominem arguments have I put forward? I have only (until this point) responded to posters with links, facts and some questions pertaining to the readership of the Guardian.

Do I think people can change biological sex? No, as a scientist, I do not. But does that mean I don’t believe people are born transgender? No, it doesn’t. I fully believe there are people whose sense of self doesn’t align with their biological entity. Whether that sense of self is socially constructed or not doesn’t make a difference - these people need help now, not millennia from now when we’ve overthrown the patriarchy and done away with gender stereotyping. They need appropriate healthcare now. For some it will be physical interventions, for others it will be psychological.

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Do you think males should have access to women’s sports?

Prisons and changing rooms?

And what is your view on compelled pronoun use

nettie434 · 08/07/2023 12:00

I disagree with the shutting down debate comments

That wasn't very clear. I meant that I have not found that GC posters have shut down my comments.

ILikeDungs · 08/07/2023 12:17

Just so I’m clear, it’s ok to liken someone you (wrongly, as it happens) assume to be anti-GC to someone capable of bashing an animal’s head in but not ok to call the people who make that attack a viper. Got it.

I thought you were being compared to a man famous for losing court cases, but ok!

dcbc1234 · 08/07/2023 12:21

Fiftyisthenewsixty · 08/07/2023 11:40

I don't think you need to be a doctor to conclude that cutting up children for a "problem" which didn't exist ten years ago is fundamentally wrong. You just need to be a decent human being with a moral compass.

Yes. See also 'I am not a vet but I know what a dog is.' (KJK)

Catusrusty · 08/07/2023 12:23

sydenhamhiller · 08/07/2023 08:37

Oh my goodness. Are you 8? Surely the whole point of a discussion board is to read/ discuss/ hear other points of view?

Not metaphorically stick fingers in ears and say ‘La la La can’t hear you’. Just because someone has a different opinion does’t mean they are spreading a message of ‘hate’.

Quite

It was an idiotic response by someone who knows they've been outclassed

WomblingTree86 · 08/07/2023 12:24

Fiftyisthenewsixty · 08/07/2023 11:50

On the contrary, I think it's very common and always has been. We didn't use to treat it through expensive surgeries or creating lifelong dependency on expensive drugs, though. I wonder why?

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They did 10 years ago.

Ridemeginger · 08/07/2023 12:25

If the AMA has the evidence to back up their claims, they wouldn't need to appeal to the DOJ to get journalists and anyone else questioning them shut down and prosecuted. It's interesting how the investigation and court cases into the Tavistock Clinic's conduct has, thus far, shown that the similar stance taken by them has resulted in malpractice and harm to minors.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 12:28

Bingbangbongbash · 08/07/2023 11:20

Perhaps you didn’t, but there are at least 2 posts on this thread likening me to a fox killing bloke because I defended the BBC and Guardian. I haven’t put forward my views on trans because last time I tried to engage in any sort of debate, I was, again, attacked for no reason - even though, actually, I’m not a believer in gender stereotypes, so probably have quite a lot of common ground here. You do your cause no good at all because instead of engaging with facts, studies, evidence, you present half-truths. Like the women above who talks about the liberal states in the US and their dangerous pro-trans agenda, yet makes no mention of the 13+ who have banned any kind of trans health care for minors, leaving, according to one article I read (Telegraph, I think), tens of thousands without appropriate support - a move condemned by the medical institutes of the USA.

That’s why people accuse you of spreading hate - you won’t ever discuss or try to understand the other side.

Which ad hominem arguments have I put forward? I have only (until this point) responded to posters with links, facts and some questions pertaining to the readership of the Guardian.

Do I think people can change biological sex? No, as a scientist, I do not. But does that mean I don’t believe people are born transgender? No, it doesn’t. I fully believe there are people whose sense of self doesn’t align with their biological entity. Whether that sense of self is socially constructed or not doesn’t make a difference - these people need help now, not millennia from now when we’ve overthrown the patriarchy and done away with gender stereotyping. They need appropriate healthcare now. For some it will be physical interventions, for others it will be psychological.

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Good point, well made. Sadly, however, lost on the majority of the responders for exactly the reason you state.

eggcupboard · 08/07/2023 12:30

who have banned any kind of trans health care for minors

Have you read these laws? They aren't what you are claiming.

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 12:33

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 12:28

Good point, well made. Sadly, however, lost on the majority of the responders for exactly the reason you state.

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Same questions as for pp

Do you agree with males in female sports, prisons and changing rooms?

What is your view on compelled pronouns

Catusrusty · 08/07/2023 12:37

Pluvia · 07/07/2023 19:50

you've got to wonder what else they are keeping from us to control the narrative when important news items are ignored. And what they are actively feeding us to control the narrative when they adopt the "sex assigned at birth" type speak and groom children with programs about "100 genders". I feel manipulated when I listen to the BBC. So I don't listen.

This. Thank you for saying it. I was a BBC and Guardian devotee for 40 years or more. Guardian on the commute to work, Guardian on a Saturday. And then on 31 December 2015 there were mass, organised attacks on women in Cologne: 2000 men who organised to sexually assault around 1000 women. And the Guardian didn't mention it until days later. Even the BBC took its time. They both, in their coverage, played down the misogyny and appalling effect it had on so many women because of the inconvenient fact that most of the men who had carried out the attacks were Muslim immigrants.

Some days after that Gaby Hinsliff wrote a really shocking piece about it in the Guardian, minimising it. A day or two later Deborah Orr published a piece as a riposte, also in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/09/the-left-must-admit-the-truth-about-the-assaults-on-women-in-cologne

And that was that: 1000 women attacked and the Guardian had nothing much to say. It suddenly dawned on me that if the Guardian and the BBC weren't reporting this as it needed to be reported, what else weren't they reporting? That was the point when I started to grow up and realise that the Left isn't necessarily a friend to women and that the Guardian is as biassed and as complicit in hiding things as any other media outlet.

I too was a guardian and BBC devotee but now really only listen to podcasts.

The BBC and Guardian make no secret that they consider women beneath contempt in how they report. Any negative consequence on women of the mass immigration of culturally different men or the impact of TRActivists are routinely ignored.

The Cologne events were horrific and totally downplayed. It should have been a huge wake up call.

Thanks for posting the article, I hadn't seen that one.

justasking111 · 08/07/2023 12:49

Bingbangbongbash · 08/07/2023 11:54

No, bless my scientific education and years of field experience. This is my head talking, not my heart.

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No disrespect but on an anonymous forum you could be anyone. If you've published papers put them up on here for discussion otherwise. Bless your heart.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:00

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 12:33

Same questions as for pp

Do you agree with males in female sports, prisons and changing rooms?

What is your view on compelled pronouns

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Its funny, those questions would be reasonable in balanced debates. Here on MN they are used to tag targets for extermination by those who have co-opted GC views to perpetuate hate, shut down debate and bully other women into submission.

So in answer to your demands. I don't do cults, so thanks but no thanks.

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 13:04

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:00

Its funny, those questions would be reasonable in balanced debates. Here on MN they are used to tag targets for extermination by those who have co-opted GC views to perpetuate hate, shut down debate and bully other women into submission.

So in answer to your demands. I don't do cults, so thanks but no thanks.

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Oh well

There is obviously agreement between you and another poster on what is reasonable but how that works in practise for women is key.

I don’t think it can be answered in a way that works, hence the post back

justasking111 · 08/07/2023 13:08

Decades ago we had a tenant Mr Jones who took the drugs, underwent gender reassignment as in a surgical procedure by Miss Evans at ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Miss Jones then needed a new tenancy agreement. She went through so much physically and mentally. Was a lovely lady since departed.

So don't lecture me about the willie wavers demanding x y and z

ILikeDungs · 08/07/2023 13:10

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:00

Its funny, those questions would be reasonable in balanced debates. Here on MN they are used to tag targets for extermination by those who have co-opted GC views to perpetuate hate, shut down debate and bully other women into submission.

So in answer to your demands. I don't do cults, so thanks but no thanks.

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This might be funny if it weren't so sad. You won't debate (in effect, you shut down debate) because "MN shuts down debate". Whaaat?

Clearly not true, questions were asked. If you are confident in your answer there is no reason not to respond.

Fiftyisthenewsixty · 08/07/2023 13:10

Its funny, those questions would be reasonable in balanced debates.
What is funny is it seems there is never a way to pose this rather simple question without people complaining rather than answering it.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:10

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 13:04

Oh well

There is obviously agreement between you and another poster on what is reasonable but how that works in practise for women is key.

I don’t think it can be answered in a way that works, hence the post back

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I don't know the other poster nor how much our views align. I do know what 'Feminist' and 'GC' 'debates' look like on MN and it ain't pretty or informative, unless you want to know what hate is. That's my point.

I don’t think it can be answered in a way that works, hence the post back
I don't even know what that statement means.

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 13:12

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:10

I don't know the other poster nor how much our views align. I do know what 'Feminist' and 'GC' 'debates' look like on MN and it ain't pretty or informative, unless you want to know what hate is. That's my point.

I don’t think it can be answered in a way that works, hence the post back
I don't even know what that statement means.

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You are avoiding answering with excuses.

Fiftyisthenewsixty · 08/07/2023 13:12

justasking111 · 08/07/2023 13:08

Decades ago we had a tenant Mr Jones who took the drugs, underwent gender reassignment as in a surgical procedure by Miss Evans at ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Miss Jones then needed a new tenancy agreement. She went through so much physically and mentally. Was a lovely lady since departed.

So don't lecture me about the willie wavers demanding x y and z

And this is relevant because?? Having worked in the probation service I have come across many "Miss Joneses". Some nice, some not so much. I don't think we should be basing public policy on anecdotes.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:17

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 13:12

You are avoiding answering with excuses.

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For more information see: 'I don't owe you anything' and 'shut the door on your way out'

eggcupboard · 08/07/2023 13:18

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:00

Its funny, those questions would be reasonable in balanced debates. Here on MN they are used to tag targets for extermination by those who have co-opted GC views to perpetuate hate, shut down debate and bully other women into submission.

So in answer to your demands. I don't do cults, so thanks but no thanks.

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But can others reading this assume that you do have some views on these questions, even if you're not sharing them for whatever odd reason? Or have you, perhaps, not considered the topic enough to answer?

BartholemewHolmes · 08/07/2023 13:22

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:17

For more information see: 'I don't owe you anything' and 'shut the door on your way out'

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You have that the wrong way round. I’m happy to engage on here it’s you that has an issue with it.

I’ll stay and see if others are able to answer.

You can decide if you go, and shut your door on the way out.

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:34

eggcupboard · 08/07/2023 13:18

But can others reading this assume that you do have some views on these questions, even if you're not sharing them for whatever odd reason? Or have you, perhaps, not considered the topic enough to answer?

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If it makes you feel better to think that I have not considered the topic enough,, you do you. I have very strong views, just not interested in the twisting and feeding frenzy which ensues. It's not odd not wanting to share them in that sort of hostile binary /groupthink 'debate' environment.

ILikeDungs · 08/07/2023 13:40

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 08/07/2023 13:17

For more information see: 'I don't owe you anything' and 'shut the door on your way out'

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You missed 'you're not the boss of me' and 'nyah nyah'

It's odd you use the word 'cult' to describe GC views. To me, gender ideology often feels like a cult of silence.

I have very strong views, just not interested in the twisting and feeding frenzy which ensues. It's not odd not wanting to share them in that sort of hostile binary /groupthink 'debate' environment.

So you are here to accomplish what? To mock posters with primary school taunts.