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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christine and the Queens - at Glastonbury

156 replies

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 07:42

I'd never been fully aware of Christine and The Queens ( Heloise Letissier) before her set at Glastonbury on Saturday, but the complete performance of her new album was pretty phenomenal and worth a watch ( Link to BBC IPlayer below).

As I understand it she has recently 'come out' as a transman and sometimes now uses the stage name of 'Redcar'. Up until recently she has been experimenting and performing as a woman playing with 'masculine tropes'.

She has been in a relationship with a woman called 'Ocean' who has herself now transitioned - but in her case she has documented, on French TV, her transition journey, involving recovery from a mastectomy and the use of testosterone ( she was a good looking woman, not so much as a man).

Heloise says, in an interview I've read, that people keep suggesting to her ways she could do 'being a transman' better - by which she assumes they mean 'top surgery', hormones and cutting her hair short and so on - but she has held back because she says she doesn't feel the need to do all of that to explore her 'transness'. Good on her, and hopefully she holds out on that.

Her performance at Glastonbury was extraordinary. True art; although at times just a little bit mental. It involves numerous interior monologues as she documents her recent experiences ( and traumas) around her mother dying, her mental health struggles, suicide ideation, sex, and finally her re-birth as a boy.

She strips off her waistcoat near the beginning of the set to reveal intact breasts ( I was getting nervous that would not be the case at that point) but with her nipples covered with plasters ( this must have been on BBC guidance, as I think a public display of nipples on a woman is what is considered offensive, whereas not for a man). She performed the rest of the set topless.

So much food for thought and reflection on the back of this stage set - but as peice of complete art it was pretty amazing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

BBC Music - Glastonbury, 2023, Christine and the Queens

A charismatic and mesmerising performance of electro-pop goodness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

OP posts:
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NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 15:18

FigRollsAlly · 26/06/2023 14:44

She has a beautiful voice and I wonder whether she is holding off from taking hormones because that would alter its sound forever. But if she’s resisting hormones and surgery for the reasons she says I hope any young fans of hers who have been considering permanent changes to their bodies are taking note.

Yes, hormones would ruin her beautiful voice...and yes, let's hope she resists the pressure to to conform to the pressure of the queer community and its trans expectations.

OP posts:
LaBefana · 26/06/2023 15:20

@RealityFan

eight times Tory voter

Sorry you lost me. Right there. Bye.

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 15:20

Art innit?

QueenBitch666 · 26/06/2023 15:22

She started off incredibly promising and quickly plummeted the depths of self absorbed navel gazing. So disappointing

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 15:23

I'm quite happy to see bare chests on male performers - but only if they're fit, young and beautiful. I love a fit, young rock god, myself.

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Floisme · 26/06/2023 15:25

I don't think how an artist presents on stage or in the recording studio is particularly my business. I didn't see the performance but experimenting with different personas, and using your art to explore loss and grief and trauma sounds like a perfectly valid thing to do.

What I'm not clear about is what's happening when Letissier leaves the stage. Where, as an example, have the 'he' and 'they' pronouns come from? Has Letissier requested that we use them them or is that just an assumption made by the self-styled liberal media?

I don't remember Bowie ever insisting on being addressed as 'Ziggy' or 'Duke'. It was an act and we all knew it. If we're being expected to treat performance art as real life then that's a different matter entirely and yes, it affects us, of course it does.

RealityFan · 26/06/2023 15:32

LaBefana · 26/06/2023 15:20

@RealityFan

eight times Tory voter

Sorry you lost me. Right there. Bye.

Have we met? Lol

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 15:40

She was not introduced to the Glastonbury audience as anything other 'Christine and the Queens' - nor did she even bring up the issue of gender in any other way than through her art form.

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SoWhatEh · 26/06/2023 15:43

PrincessofWellies · 26/06/2023 14:35

So don't read it then or watch it. What they do doesn't affect you.

Except it does @Princess of Wellies when we talk about an artist we admire. I see a woman - a powerful, creative, expressive woman and I relate to that. I personally find it sad that young women (I know a fair few female to male trans teens) feel the need to consider themselves men in order to express that vital, dynamic side to themselves. This is an issue we should all explore and discuss.

As to Heloise/Chris/Redcar, to me, they are very definitely a woman. But the press now calls them a man. Do I out of respect call them 'he'? I find that sort of 'respect' oppressive because it insists I set aside my objective critical thinking and do as I'm told. As a feminist - fuck that. But they might find fans calling them 'she' oppressive. And I respect that too.

I don't mind using 'them' as it has long been a feminist accepted term to remind the world that not everyone is a man. I grew up in the era when everyone in any position of authority or presence in the world was assumed to be male. E.g. all scientists, readers, bank account and mortgage holders etc were referred to as 'he' and women who queried this were tetchily told "well of course it means 'he or she' it's just shorthand." Shorthand for keeping women invisible.

And now the glorious female power of Heloise is reclaimed as male. So I totally get why @baggiesmalls head hurts.

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 15:44

I was intrigued and did some research on her afterwards which is how I know she is now using male pronouns. Her art seems to be the most important thing to her. She's clearly got mental health issues and is grieving her mother - and I think it's good she's resisting the pressures from the queer community - which is obviously a big section of her audience.

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JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 15:45

a way of framing the self
Do people actually speak like this?

LaBefana · 26/06/2023 15:54

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 15:45

a way of framing the self
Do people actually speak like this?

They do on Mumsnet, on this kind of thread.

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 16:04

The artist known as whatever could just get one of these T-shirts

Christine and the Queens - at Glastonbury
RealityFan · 26/06/2023 16:17

RealityFan · 26/06/2023 15:32

Have we met? Lol

Actually, I'm gonna leave a serious point. Why is it always those on the Left who break off all comms? I've never ever refused to talk to anyone about anything, no matter how they've voted, no matter how much I disagree with them.

I have many clients who are died in wool lefties, and a handful who are pretty much queer activists and trans. Yes, I'm careful to be polite and respectful. And only these individuals have issues talking to me, or I'm self compelled to self censor.

So you wanna say "bye" to me. Fair enough. Stick to your circle and herd and bubble. Plenty of other people here to talk to. Hopefully even some on the left.

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 16:21

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 16:04

The artist known as whatever could just get one of these T-shirts

Excellent

IClaudine · 26/06/2023 16:25

Tbh how and why Redcar/Chris chooses to express their/his identity is not for me to pick apart and critique. The Glastonbury performance was gob smackingly good and I enjoyed it hugely. BTW I am pushing 60, very tail end boomer.

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 16:27

I only saw one song but it was very good. The nipple plasters were a bit distracting though.

inamarina · 26/06/2023 17:54

Redebs · 26/06/2023 09:09

And why do BBC keep getting her to read CBeebies stories? She has a rubbish speaking voice, odd intonation and an affected 'gender-bending' vibe.

I actually first came across her on Cbeebies bedtime stories.
Being an immigrant I thought „Oh nice, someone with a foreign accent!“
I looked her up and saw that she actually identified as a „he“. I thought her voice and intonation sounded quite feminine though.

rhywlodes · 26/06/2023 18:35

Heloise/whatever her name is does ask to be called he, which, for example, Front Row did unquestioningly and with no real explanation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001mlvs
from about 24 mins.

It feels like gaslighting, this female voice being referred to as he/him on the radio. If you'd just turned it on you'd be so confused. It's like saying down is up.

I do feel quite angry about her - I spent almost 20 years living in the part of France she's from. I had several colleagues who knew her parents. So I don't know her, but am only a couple of removes from her.

I also personally know 3 young women from this same part of the world who identify as men, 2 of whom are in their 20s and have already gone through surgery. The 3rd is still in high school and as far as I know has done nothing medical although her school are affirming her without question. That is in my fairly reduced social circle.

I find it heart breaking to think about these young women.

I really do hope she is making her position that being trans is nothing to do with hormones and bodily mutilation very very clear, as it looks to me like there are many confused young women who look up to her and who got the memo too late to save their own vocal chords, breasts and fertility.

She's in a privileged postion and it makes me so sad and angry that she isn't behaving more responsibly towards the vulnerable young girls who aren't able to protect themselves as well as she has.

WhereAreWeNow · 26/06/2023 19:39

I really like Christine and the Queens early stuff but the latest Redcar stuff seems to have lost its way.
I think of her in the same way as Elliot Page. She seems very fragile and troubled. I'm not convinced identifying as a man is going to relieve her troubles.

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 19:48

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 15:45

a way of framing the self
Do people actually speak like this?

Yes, they do, especially if they have any awareness of psychology, art or literature.

Not sure why you are posting in such a combative and unpleasant style?
But whatever floats your boat, I guess. Though, not for me, 😢

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RealityFan · 26/06/2023 19:52

It is quite something, when the counterculture irrevocably pulled away from organised religion, all the beautiful people were happy to bust proscribed speech and beliefs.

And now it's going the other way. The beautiful and glittery are creating new structures, new rules, new proscribed speech.

So, I could be a massive fan of Christine, ask for an autograph, or ask a Q at a fan meet or a radio phone in, and if I don't follow the new religion to the letter in gendering Christine "correctly", I'll be ignored by them, cut off, thrown out.

Worse still if I did this on Twitter, if I was anyone even remotely famous or well known or requiring the online world for my work etc, I would be ostracised swiftly and punitively.

So much for a new way of existing, it's just the old way with the same social ostracisation penalties baked in. Before you were treated as a poor citizen, today you have no meaningful online existence.

Where's the "counterculture" in this? It seems as paternalistic and hidebound by rules as the old religious supremacist age from the 50s.

namitynamechange · 26/06/2023 19:55

WhereAreWeNow · 26/06/2023 19:39

I really like Christine and the Queens early stuff but the latest Redcar stuff seems to have lost its way.
I think of her in the same way as Elliot Page. She seems very fragile and troubled. I'm not convinced identifying as a man is going to relieve her troubles.

I think actually her new songs are (and this is an overused term) genuinely boundary pushing creatively. I think they work better live as part of a performance- her Glastonbury set was phenomenal. Of you are going to push boundaries, play with identity etc then art/music/the creative fields are the natural place for that and always have been (as opposed to e.g. children's medicine). Which doesn't mean she can't also have issues going on.

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 20:41

I saw 👀 iffy pops performance on "the white room" in the 90s which his transparent trousers .

I had to have a lie down . 😂

RealityFan · 26/06/2023 21:06

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 20:41

I saw 👀 iffy pops performance on "the white room" in the 90s which his transparent trousers .

I had to have a lie down . 😂

A bit sweaty in there, no?