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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christine and the Queens - at Glastonbury

156 replies

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 07:42

I'd never been fully aware of Christine and The Queens ( Heloise Letissier) before her set at Glastonbury on Saturday, but the complete performance of her new album was pretty phenomenal and worth a watch ( Link to BBC IPlayer below).

As I understand it she has recently 'come out' as a transman and sometimes now uses the stage name of 'Redcar'. Up until recently she has been experimenting and performing as a woman playing with 'masculine tropes'.

She has been in a relationship with a woman called 'Ocean' who has herself now transitioned - but in her case she has documented, on French TV, her transition journey, involving recovery from a mastectomy and the use of testosterone ( she was a good looking woman, not so much as a man).

Heloise says, in an interview I've read, that people keep suggesting to her ways she could do 'being a transman' better - by which she assumes they mean 'top surgery', hormones and cutting her hair short and so on - but she has held back because she says she doesn't feel the need to do all of that to explore her 'transness'. Good on her, and hopefully she holds out on that.

Her performance at Glastonbury was extraordinary. True art; although at times just a little bit mental. It involves numerous interior monologues as she documents her recent experiences ( and traumas) around her mother dying, her mental health struggles, suicide ideation, sex, and finally her re-birth as a boy.

She strips off her waistcoat near the beginning of the set to reveal intact breasts ( I was getting nervous that would not be the case at that point) but with her nipples covered with plasters ( this must have been on BBC guidance, as I think a public display of nipples on a woman is what is considered offensive, whereas not for a man). She performed the rest of the set topless.

So much food for thought and reflection on the back of this stage set - but as peice of complete art it was pretty amazing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

BBC Music - Glastonbury, 2023, Christine and the Queens

A charismatic and mesmerising performance of electro-pop goodness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

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OldCrone · 26/06/2023 09:01

A shame, though, that non conformity and individuality has to be associated with bodily harm in the form of drugs and/or surgery. I guess that is where the new craze for 'non binary' comes from...you don't require any physical modifications.

Mastectomies and testosterone seem quite popular amongst female non binaries. But it seems to be more about not being a woman than being a man (although the default is obviously seen as male, hence the surgery and hormones).

For male non binaries no physical changes are necessary (other than possibly growing their hair), but as 'non males' they think they can use women's changing rooms and compete in women's sports.

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:04

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:00

I’m not grumpy, I just don’t agree with you.
Its allowed

What have i said that you specifically disagree with?

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alabastercodefier · 26/06/2023 09:06

@NotHavingIt , I'm far from grumpy. I find her a disappointment.

InterestingUsernameTBC · 26/06/2023 09:07

I saw her interviewed on TV once, years ago. I remember it as being Paxman interviewing but I could be wrong. She was talking about playing with gender in her videos and stuff and the one line that stuck in my mind from that interview was, 'of course, I am a woman but...' And now, apparently, she's not?

Redebs · 26/06/2023 09:09

Clymene · 26/06/2023 08:23

What's this got to do with feminism? 'Her rebirth as a boy'?

Humans can't change sex. There is nothing feminist about saying you're male because you reject conventional feminine beauty standards.

I think she's an interesting artist but she's not a feminist.

And why do BBC keep getting her to read CBeebies stories? She has a rubbish speaking voice, odd intonation and an affected 'gender-bending' vibe.

Redebs · 26/06/2023 09:10

And the fashion for getting your breasts cut off is just misogynist

LaBefana · 26/06/2023 09:10

I was very struck recently to find a recent video on the internet of Christine and the ineffable Nicola Sirkis doing the Indochine hit of the 80s, 3ème Sexe.

Dans la rue, des tenues charmantes
Maquillé comme mon fiancé
Garçon, fille, l'allure stupéfiante
Habillé comme ma fiancée
Cheveux longs, cheveux blonds colorés
Toute nue dans une boîte en fer
Il est belle, il est beau décrié
L'outragé mais j'en ai rien à faire

DH and I will always remember flying to Nice in 2005 just to see Indochine on their Alice et June tour

Nicolas Sirkis et Christine / 3ème sexe

Indochine et Christine and the queens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZgCOHDy4j0

SmartHome · 26/06/2023 09:13

I'm not grumpy at all. I just think you can not / no longer call yourself a feminist / have others describing your performance as feminist if you claim to now be a boy (why not man, she's in her thirties isn't she?) when you're a female and a woman.

This ruins any enjoyment or appreciation of her performance for me.

GoldfincTart · 26/06/2023 09:16

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 08:49

Annie Lennox had short hair and wore trousers.
She didn’t spend her time on self indulgent nonsense that she thought made her sound more interesting than she was.
The person you describe is talented and can live their life anyway they see fit but it all seems a bit navel gazing and “oooh, look at me. I’m better than other lesbians “

Yes, this. Annie Lennox was/ is a feminist and was writing feminist songs and exploring the imbalances in male/ female power while celebrating being a woman, just like hundreds of female performers before her, from the music halls to Marlene Dietrich.

I'm guessing internalised homophobia is at play with Heloise.

I saw her perform live at Latitude years ago, when she was just being herself, and again on TV with Jools Holland, and the self-indulgent stuff hasn't made her any more interesting. She was fantastic then, years ago. Anyone remember the scene in Better Things, back in 2017, when the girls/ women did a take-off of Tilted?

She inspired women — and now she's sending the message that she doesn't want to own her womanhood, is that it? Teaching women to dislike and question their female-sexed bodies? This is all so regressive. How did we get to a place where men managed to persuade women to hate themselves so effectively?

Better Things | Season 2 Ep. 10: The Dance Scene | FX

When it's time to celebrate, just dance. Watch the final scene from the Season Two finale of Better Things.Subscribe now for more Better Things clips: http:/...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqLJnOyuP_k

GoldfincTart · 26/06/2023 09:23

A lot of Monday morning grumpiness, maybe?

Ah. No, not grumpiness, fury at seeing yet another woman being sucked down the trans plughole.

Accusing women putting forward cogent arguments of grumpiness has echoes of No Debate.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/06/2023 09:25

heartsinvisiblefury · 26/06/2023 08:23

Why in 2023 can Lewis Capaldi have his nipples on full display but this person has to cover them up with plasters?

Agree

This really, really pisses me off actually. Not just on a Monday Grin

begaydocrime42 · 26/06/2023 09:30

How hard is it for some of you to accept (not understand, but accept you don't understand and sit with that) that not everyone experiences gender the same as you? If she's not changing her body, why do you care that someone who rationally understands they're biologically a woman partake in performance art that focuses on gender?
I mean, apart from buying into this culture war crap, just take yourselves out of it for a moment and breathe. Lol.

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:30

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:04

What have i said that you specifically disagree with?

How wonderful it all is

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:31

GoldfincTart · 26/06/2023 09:23

A lot of Monday morning grumpiness, maybe?

Ah. No, not grumpiness, fury at seeing yet another woman being sucked down the trans plughole.

Accusing women putting forward cogent arguments of grumpiness has echoes of No Debate.

It would help if you could pick out something I've said that you diagree with.

I'm not sure If I've actually made any strong points of contention - other than here is a clip of what i think is a captivating performance - with a bit of biographical detail for information.

Otherwise it just feels unnecessarily adversarial.

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Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:32

GoldfincTart · 26/06/2023 09:23

A lot of Monday morning grumpiness, maybe?

Ah. No, not grumpiness, fury at seeing yet another woman being sucked down the trans plughole.

Accusing women putting forward cogent arguments of grumpiness has echoes of No Debate.

We will be told to Be Kind next

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:33

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:30

How wonderful it all is

Jeez!

So, you don't like the performance. I did, and I think others might find food for thought in it too.

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NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:34

It's actually better viewed on a TV - as the full performance space is more vivid then.

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Xeren · 26/06/2023 09:35

notsayingmuch · 26/06/2023 08:15

She should come and visit Redcar. Soon, before they burn down the seaside shelters again. It might give her a new perspective on life. Or maybe not. She could have a go on the amusements, at any rate!

😂😂😂

DramaticBananas · 26/06/2023 09:38

I love Christine but the plaster covered nipples did detract from my enjoyment of her performance. I realise that is my problem, and it was crap I couldn't get fully absorbed it in because of that (I dont really want to see Lewis C's either, tbh). Then I read she is now he. Sigh. Wake me up when it's all over.

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:38

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:33

Jeez!

So, you don't like the performance. I did, and I think others might find food for thought in it too.

I haven’t seen the performance, I am not commenting on that.
I am commenting on how lovely it’s all supposed to be that a woman now claims to not be one and that’s now art and another woman has unnecessarily mutilated herself and you seem to think it’s all great
Pushing the boundaries of what women are supposed to look like/behave is great. Pushing the boundaries of what a woman is - not so good.

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:41

Hoppinggreen · 26/06/2023 09:38

I haven’t seen the performance, I am not commenting on that.
I am commenting on how lovely it’s all supposed to be that a woman now claims to not be one and that’s now art and another woman has unnecessarily mutilated herself and you seem to think it’s all great
Pushing the boundaries of what women are supposed to look like/behave is great. Pushing the boundaries of what a woman is - not so good.

Who has said it is "all lovely?"

You do realise you can understand a position and articulate it without having to agree or concur with every little detail.

It is a stage performance that presents issues around gender in a striking visual way.

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IClaudine · 26/06/2023 09:41

I thought he was amazing. An absolute powerhouse of a performance. It is his business how he chooses to identify and how to express it. There are shades of Bowie about him in the way that he seems to have different personas and I wonder if this current one will be shed in time.

IClaudine · 26/06/2023 09:42

another woman has unnecessarily mutilated herself and you seem to think it’s all great

That has not happened in this case, though.

Chattermaxisdead · 26/06/2023 09:43

Her performances are incredible. I believe that we should be more open minded about how men and women can present themselves to the world rather than suggesting clothes etc should determine your gender, this idea seems to be lost on most people identifying as trans. Having said that I do think it's a relative positive to have someone prominent calling themselves a transman who talks publicly about hormones and surgery being unnecessary.
“I am in resistance to the approach of trans identity that there has to be hormones and operations,” he says. “It’s abiding by a binary system that I don’t believe in. Binarism has been made to control. The system itself imposes a lot of performance on everybody from birth and I want to free myself and everybody else in the conversation. I am sick of having to define myself with their grotesque tools of oppression. And I don’t think I owe anyone scars, to be precise. I don’t feel I need to change anything about me. I think what needed to be changed was self-hate, dysphoria and self-harm.”

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 09:45

IClaudine · 26/06/2023 09:41

I thought he was amazing. An absolute powerhouse of a performance. It is his business how he chooses to identify and how to express it. There are shades of Bowie about him in the way that he seems to have different personas and I wonder if this current one will be shed in time.

I'm sure it will be - so long as she can hold out against the pressure to conform to 'trans standards' ( ie medical or surgical)

I was reminded of an earlier performance in the same tent by Damiano David of Maneskin, who also plays around with gender presentations; certainly in terms of dress and presentation; although his peformance itself is incredibly masculine, In fact some of the poses that she adopted I could easily imagine she'd copied from his performance.

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