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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Police withdraw stalking protection order application against Caroline Farrow

431 replies

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 23/06/2023 08:45

Or rather their barrister does. The case somehow got as far as court without the police giving Caroline's representations to the barrister. Once he read them he declined to proceeed.

https://twitter.com/CF_Farrow/status/1671854328485691392?

https://twitter.com/CF_Farrow/status/1672117973862039552?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
LarkLane · 01/08/2023 23:24

Noting the comments of Judge Gerald Clifton (above) regarding the alleged "willingness" of the 14 year old boy.

The same Judge Gerald Clifton who heard the Rochdale grooming gang case I assume?

Brefugee · 02/08/2023 06:38

Nowhere do you ever address things like proportionality in police investigations.

Well. I have asked about this on several occasions and over several threads going back a fair while.

I have asked, given we know that it is the same complainer every time (afaik the complainer has said this, and it has also been iterated elsewhere that it is one person making several complaints) when the police will put 2+2 together. And the answer is that they treat all the complaints separately (and my private impression given how often i get this answer is: they don't care to stretch the grey matter that far in some cases)

We have often brought up the case of Gracie Spinks to ask why when a woman goes to the police (and we know from various studies that this rarely happens the first time they are attacked/threatened) because her ex was stalking her, and did this more than once because the police did nothing so he carried on - why the police don't have a quiet word, at the very least, with the stalker. Especially given that this woman went several times. Answer here, comes their none apart from vague "they make mistakes they're only human" type answers.

And when we point out that this young woman - say her name: Gracie Spinks - was prosecuted for the very crime we believe Caroline's complainant is up to, we get waffle.

Just to remind everyone: Gracie was stalked by her ex. When she made several complaints of this to the police she was prosecuted for vexatious litigation. And then her ex killed her.

Low. Hanging. Fruit.

I don't read F's answers now. Even when directly adressed to me.

Maaate · 02/08/2023 07:06

Angelwings77 · 01/08/2023 23:12

Count down to when bobble hatted Becki Babe threatens to sue MNHQ in 3 2 1

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Police withdraw stalking protection order application against Caroline Farrow
Felix125 · 02/08/2023 09:56

lechiffre55

I do explain the challenges we face and the complexities of the job. A couple of pages back, people where aghast about the OIC being away from the shift for 7 weeks and why their team can't progress the investigation in their absence. So, I explained what the 7 weeks could be (annual leave & a course perhaps) and why we can't simply pass the case on to another colleague.

Vol interviews - the thread about KJK attending for an interview. Yes my advice would be to attend. In fact most solicitors we deal with advise their clients to attend. Otherwise it the complainants word against nothing and off to court it goes. If you give your 'side of the story' we at least have a defence to examine if the person can provide an account or alibi. That way the case can be resolved without it going to court.

If you were the victim of a crime - theft, common assault etc. Would you be happy for the police to advise you that "The suspect has refused or been advised not to attend for an interview so we are not pursuing the case any further". If there was no power or necessity to arrest - what would you want the police to do next?

If Dennis Noel Kavanaugh was the one who suggested that anything said in a police interview can not be used in court and that we don't investigate defence statements & alibis from a suspect - then I personally would question his advice.

A man makes dozens of complaints about someone he doesn't like on twitter - Again we are not 100% certain that it is the same person at this stage if you mean the CF case, but if it can be shown that the complaint if false and vexatious, then it will be ignored and the reporting person pursued for making a false statement. Lots of similar calls do. But then you get the ones where it can't be determined at this stage. Its the cry wolf scenario. There are loads of reports we get from the same callers - ASB for example where, when the police get there, all is quiet and nothing going on or any damage etc. When do we start to ignore those calls? Or DV cases where the reporting person declines to provide details of any assaults/crimes. Do we start to ignore them after the 5th call they make?

Each call has to be taken on its own merits. They are also assessed by the initial call taker, dispatcher, management unit before they get passed out to a cop. And are all assessed for threat, harm, & risk.

Each crime has to be investigated. Nuisance calls to some might just be ignored and seen as a bit silly. To others it might seriously be affecting their lives & mental health. Yes, they will not be seen as a priority such as DV cases, burglaries, missing from homes etc - that's possibly why CF's enquiry is sat on the OIC's job queue - along with the other 15 jobs that fall into the same priority category. It will just be progressed when the OIC can. I know not ideal, but we don't have endless resources and cases have to fall into a priority list. With limited resources & officers I'm not sure how else you would want this to happen.

There are lots of rules that i would love to change in the police - cell watches, hospital watches, missing from homes, mental health cases, the length of time CPS take to provide a decision, the fact that CPS want a full file before they act, the amount of file redactions, BWV and its data storage, training - I could go on and on. And yes, we could look at ignoring calls from people who have made the same complaint 10 times about the same person. But would society accept this when the 11 call turned out to be a serious assault or murder.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 10:07

Brefugee
But again - we are not 100% certain its the same caller

If it is the same caller then - when do we start ignoring them, after the 4th call, 5th call - 10th call?

And is that the same for other incidents - say DV incidents, harassments, ASB

So for Gracie Spinks - yes each of her calls should have been examined/investigated properly and not just 'written off'. Warnings could have been given (and should have been given) to the suspect at the very least.

If they wanted to prosecute her for vexatious complaints - then they should have evidence to support it. For example the suspect could prove that it was not him doing the things she reported.

I don't know what that evidence is as i am not privy to that enquiry - but what if there is evidence to suggest that the first few reports made by Gracie could be proven to be vexatious? Where does that leave the police? Were they right to ignore any further calls from Gracie? Putting 2 + 2 together as you say.

lechiffre55 · 02/08/2023 10:25

I forget to mention you also cherry pick and choose what you respond to.
What seems like your personal bias against GC.
Would you treat others sharing your bias the same?
Proportionality.

Felix. As others have said, I think the best way for me personally, is just to argree to disagree with you, and to not engage with you any more. I never get the feeling that you are coming from a position of good faith. I think you probably are the reddit Felix, a young guy desperate for whatever internal reasons to represent the whole of the law to gain some authority through that. But you come across as so closed minded unable to acknowledge or see why others get so frustrated with you.

Brefugee · 02/08/2023 10:48

i can see Felix has replied. I scrolled quickly past the wall of text.
Has he come here and said when they should "ignore all the calls"? When it is clear that with the slightest investigation Gracie Spinks and other stalking or harassment victims could be saved a lot of heartache and bother and maybe their lives?

Because that is the usual reply.
I say: why not actually check when a woman reports harassment more than once?
Felix says: oh but should we treat all complaints as vexatious?

which completely misses the point. But makes my point for me.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/08/2023 10:51

"I don't know what that evidence is as i am not privy to that enquiry - but what if there is evidence to suggest that the first few reports made by Gracie could be proven to be vexatious? Where does that leave the police? Were they right to ignore any further calls from Gracie? Putting 2 + 2 together as you say."

Sometimes it would be nice to read these threads and not see a man poring over the murder of a woman by her stalker looking for "evidence" to prove his own prejudices about other matters. I know that women being persecuted by the police are fair game for you (judging by your posting history) but please stop making allegations about Gracie Spinks.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 10:53

lechiffre55
I respond to things I want to respond to - similar to the rest of us on here.
And I do have an interest of police issues since I have been operational for 20+ years. And if there are things posted which are not quite right or do give a full picture - I will post something to counter it. Its a public forum at the end of the day.

What bias do you think I have?
I have consistently said that we don't know the specifics of the enquiry, who the reporting person is or what the report is. How is that biased?

The initial thread started with concerns about CF being arrested at her home address and why it took 3/4 officers to do so - which I replied to.

Would you question other people's bias's on here. How about all the posters that have been abusive towards me? The posts yesterday from someone assuming my name and posting abusive comments? The posts from someone calling me a pig - and only one other person accepting that it was wrong - does that mean the rest are complicit in the abuse?

I am not the poster of reddit - its just someone who has used the same user name.

And how exactly am I closed minded. I have consistently said "we don't know" when we talk about this case. Others have seemed to assume its one in the same person making the initial report to the police even when they admit they can't be 100% certain - I have an open mind at this stage.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 10:56

MrsOvertonsWindow
I'm not making any allegations - I am saying 'what if'. Which is why its in bold and underlined.

So were they right to ignore any further calls from Gracie? Putting 2 + 2 together as Brefugee says? I would suggest not and each report she made should have been investigated properly.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 02/08/2023 10:56

So going back to Caroline….

I wonder if the Officer in Charge is not actually off on 7 weeks of holiday?

I’d like to think that he has realized he fucked this up quite a lot and it will cost Surrey Police quite a bit and his superiors have given him a dressing down and now he is off on ‘stress leave’ to recover.

In fact, I think my explanation might even be more likely.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:05

Brefugee
Because that is the usual reply.
I say: why not actually check when a woman reports harassment more than once?
Felix says: oh but should we treat all complaints as vexatious?

I haven't said that at all

I have always stated that each report should be investigated. I think its you that are suggesting that we should put 2+2 together.

"......given we know that it is the same complainer every time (afaik the complainer has said this, and it has also been iterated elsewhere that it is one person making several complaints) when the police will put 2+2 together...." Brefugee · Today 06:38

Each report should be taken on its own merits and investigated. If there is evidence to suggest its vexatious, then it gets dropped - but there has to be evidence to show that it is. Its not a case of putting 2+2 together. And in this case against CF - we don't 100% know its the same complainer.

Each of Gracie's reports should have been investigated. Similar to the reporting person's reports in CF's enquiry.

Disclaimer - I am using 'we' to mean me and most others on here. I acknowledge that some on here will know or have been told the details of the complaint and I am aware that Caroline may have access to this thread or indeed people close to her. I also acknowledge that the reporting person, OIC and direct witnesses may also read the thread and hence will not be included in the term 'we'.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:13

DifficultBloodyWoman
What do you think he/she is getting a 'dressing down' for exactly?

Person contacts police and makes a report, they provide evidence to substantiate that report, its crimed, investigation commences, statements obtained, other party is arrested/interviewed, defence raised is investigated.

If there is insufficient to pursue it further - it gets NFA'd

If there is sufficient a file is prepared for CJU/CPS.

For that file to go to CPS - evidential reports.downloads have to be applied for and compiled. It takes quite a while for them to come back.

SPO applied for to protect the reporting person, but is rejected by the court (it often happens). The primary enquiory will still continue.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/08/2023 11:14

Felix - genuine question. I can't ever recall seeing you on threads about speeding or drink driving where your expertise as a member of a police force would be appreciated. Have you ever contributed to those threads at all?

BezMills · 02/08/2023 11:17

DifficultBloodyWoman · 02/08/2023 10:56

So going back to Caroline….

I wonder if the Officer in Charge is not actually off on 7 weeks of holiday?

I’d like to think that he has realized he fucked this up quite a lot and it will cost Surrey Police quite a bit and his superiors have given him a dressing down and now he is off on ‘stress leave’ to recover.

In fact, I think my explanation might even be more likely.

In my experience as an expert on sick notes, it seems unlikely.

Normally if you have time to set your OoO before going off sick, you would leave it open-ended, no? 7 weeks seems like a weird duration for a sickie authorised by sick note. For a first sick note, I would expect 1 or 2 weeks, then subsequently maybe 4 weeks, before giving a longer duration.

Administrative leave or being suspended maybe, although again 7 weeks seems wrong to me. Things tend to be doled out in 2s and 4s and 6s, don't they?

Pixiedust1234 · 02/08/2023 11:22

Agree to getting this back on track. It's funny how it's mainly hers and KJK that get derailed so much. The women that open up the sunlight on abusive men 🤔

Anyway. Whether the 7 weeks are caused by holibobs, sick leave due to stress or a suspension or whatever, normally their caseload would be handed to someone else. Where the case is costing that particular constabulary thousands of pounds in court costs and publicity then one would assume a very senior officer would be assigned it rather than have it getting dusty on a desk. Unless of course they want to drag it out for further punishment of Caroline. But surely not. No decent human being would do that, or be supportive of that.

Which begs the question. How far upwards does this toxicity go?

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:23

MrsDanversGlidesAgain
Probably - if I think I can make a contribution to it.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:25

Pixiedust1234
I have explained this a few pages back.
There is often no-one to pass their case load onto.
Everyone on the shift will have their own case loads to do.
And mix into this all the other incoming jobs coming in.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:39

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/08/2023 11:14

Felix - genuine question. I can't ever recall seeing you on threads about speeding or drink driving where your expertise as a member of a police force would be appreciated. Have you ever contributed to those threads at all?

Just a quick look at the recent ones I have posted on:

Police asking for an apology from ds
Mould from cannabis farm, what to do?
Police response times
Driving while on Nitrous Oxide
Diversion for the man who face punched an elderly lady
Pregnant police officer
Why would an ambulance have blue lights but no sirens on
Motorbikes in pedestrian areas and parks
Car stolen... weird

Police asking for an apology from ds | Mumsnet

DS (17) got into a scuffle at the weekend with a friend. Each hit each other once, no physical harm done. It was a stupid argument over a girl and we’...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4840858-police-asking-for-an-apology-from-ds?latest=1

BezMills · 02/08/2023 11:40

Pixiedust1234 · 02/08/2023 11:22

Agree to getting this back on track. It's funny how it's mainly hers and KJK that get derailed so much. The women that open up the sunlight on abusive men 🤔

Anyway. Whether the 7 weeks are caused by holibobs, sick leave due to stress or a suspension or whatever, normally their caseload would be handed to someone else. Where the case is costing that particular constabulary thousands of pounds in court costs and publicity then one would assume a very senior officer would be assigned it rather than have it getting dusty on a desk. Unless of course they want to drag it out for further punishment of Caroline. But surely not. No decent human being would do that, or be supportive of that.

Which begs the question. How far upwards does this toxicity go?

yes, good question. And one that Sorry Police will need to answer, sooner or later. This whole mess is their doing, and they need to close it down.

Felix125 · 02/08/2023 11:47

The chances are - it won't go to a very serious manager to investigate.

Very senior managers are responsible for managing departments. So you may have a Chief Inspector who is responsible for the response teams. But they will not become the OIC for any inquires. It will get passed down to the OIC to investigate. And if all the cops on the team have similar case loads, it will stay with the OIC.

As I said before, you may have an officer who is on light duties who may be able to do bits of the case papers - but they tend to get inundated with other similar request from the other cops on the team.

DiabolicalFinial · 02/08/2023 12:19

@BezMills - “Sorry Police” 🤣🤣🤣

DifficultBloodyWoman · 02/08/2023 12:38

BezMills · 02/08/2023 11:17

In my experience as an expert on sick notes, it seems unlikely.

Normally if you have time to set your OoO before going off sick, you would leave it open-ended, no? 7 weeks seems like a weird duration for a sickie authorised by sick note. For a first sick note, I would expect 1 or 2 weeks, then subsequently maybe 4 weeks, before giving a longer duration.

Administrative leave or being suspended maybe, although again 7 weeks seems wrong to me. Things tend to be doled out in 2s and 4s and 6s, don't they?

Awww, you’re spoiling my fantasy of incompetence being punished!

Althoug, I’m not going to completely give up hope as while I set my own out of office message for holidays, other people have done it for me (and me for then) in cases of illness when we haven’t had access from home.

You are right about things being doled out in multiples of two. That is interesting, why do we do that? I haven’t thought about that before.

Perhaps it was 8 weeks and there are 7 left to run? One week’s delay in setting it up?

[Fine, ok, there may be explanations other than stress leave.] <pouts>

DrLouiseJMoody · 02/08/2023 13:03

I would hope the Officer (Wiggum is a she BTW) has been reprimanded in some form.

Just before the Stalking Order went to court, they said they had not read Caroline's submissions, i.e. evidence was on their desk which was not looked at whilst, oddly, the complainant's was included. There was, in my view, some extremely biased language in the application, mainly trying to frame Caroline as some mad right - wing fascist transphobe. Once her submissions were looked at, the case disintegrated, so what does that tell you? Clearly the order shouldn't have made it to application stage.

And now, people who pay taxes have to foot the 7000 plus bill that Surrey ran up all because they couldn't be bothered to look at one party's evidence.

Pixiedust1234 · 02/08/2023 13:04

@DifficultBloodyWoman 😂

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