School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

The genie is long, long out of the bottle, though - you can't realistically expect trans people to go away, and you can't make people forget what they know - but you can make sure they still grow up feeling shame and self-loathing.

The genie is long, long out of the bottle, though - you can't realistically expect female people to go away, and you can't make people forget what they know - but you can make sure they are bullied and silenced through public shame and force teamed slurs.

@ArabeIIaScott Blaire White? The notorious Pick Me who has made a career out of throwing other trans women under the bus and courting the egos of the alt-right as if a. she's the only one of us ever to exist in history and b. they won't immediately turn on her when she is no longer of use? The living personification of Not Like Other Girls: Transmisogyny Edition? Who has actually admitted that it's all just a grift, but carries on anyway because it brings the $$ in? Who is largely famous for being a deeply unpleasant person? That Blaire White?

She suffers from one of the worst cases of Main Character Syndrome I've ever seen, and unfortunately there is a depressingly high proportion of contenders amongst the small handful of middle-class affluent trans people who had the privilege to transition early and get desperately annoyed when they see less advantaged kids having the same (or, heaven forbid, better) chances they did.

She's correct in that there are indeed studies showing a proportion of children do desist, though. It's one of the few talking points she has which isn't entirely fabricated.

By the way Jane, I meant the post you were referring to . Not your post. I, of course, agree with your post and the sentiments expressed.

who had the privilege to transition early

Did Blaire White transition early? I’m sure I watched something with Blaire saying their transition took place in their 20s.

Early is a relative term I suppose; she transitioned a few years before it became a culture war hotspot and all the evidence I've seen seems to point toward her being furious that other people have the chance at walking an easier, less expensive road at an earlier age. It seems to be a surprisingly common phenomenon amongst the more insecure and image-conscious trans women within that particular intersection of age and class and I really hope they get the chance to sort themselves out as I'm getting very bored of being disappointed by people who should know better.

She's correct in that there are indeed studies showing a proportion of children do desist, though. It's one of the few talking points she has which isn't entirely fabricated.

Do you think that medical professionals can correctly identify the kids that aren't going to detransition? If so, is there any good evidence for that?

Do you think it would be moral to give treatment to children, if that would change the percentage of children that would naturally resolve their gender dysphoria?

So if treatment is going to increase the number of trans adults, whereas many would have naturally recovered, is that acceptable?

Nothing like a bit of character assassination as opposed to having the arguments to debate the issues raised. Plus ca change. 😂

Well, that's not very nice. Blaire seems okay to me and I don't see why you feel the need to attack like that.

So, it seems that hatched DOES know about the high desistance rates of children and teens.

And yet, is completely wedded to advocating that all children and teens be transitioned to some degree. And that drugs with very concerning side effects for males and horrific side effects that are life limiting and life shortening in some cases for female transitioners.

And they cannot see why anyone of us are hugely concerned and welcome the new guidance if it lowers the numbers of children and teens who are being 'transitioned' so that those children and teens can receive appropriate explorative therapy of long duration before any transition occurs.

All because of what? They transitioned at (x) age and feel that the younger the better for all transitioners. Regardless of the collateral damage of transitioned children later detransitioning with surgeries and significant damage due to hormones.

Just because it worked for one person, doesn't mean that it will work for another person. And hatched has never once posted any evidence that these treatments improve mental health, or that there is any test that can be done to assertion which children will persist vs desist.

It is shocking that there is this total disregard of children and teenagers needs. A total disregard of females as well.

All the evidence I've seen seems to point toward her being furious that other people have the chance at walking an easier, less expensive road at an earlier age..

I’ve watched quite a lot of Blaire White’s stuff. I’ve never had any sense that they are resentful they didn’t have the opportunity to transition earlier. They are just very certain in their view that childhood medical transition is unethical and that it is something that should only be undertaken in adulthood. If you have evidence that BW is “furious that other people have the chance at walking an easier, less expensive road at an earlier age.” I’d be interested in seeing it.

Blair White has said they would not have wanted to transition any earlier.

Blair has also said dysphoria is a mental illness and they wished they'd been a better treatment for it than transitioning.

Blair is also very pro guns.

So no not your typical Trans person. Or at least not on message.

Same. I've not had that impression either.

Don't worry, I read it in the spirit in which it was meant.

I have returned to this thread several times for a catch-up and did intend to ask hatched how she managed to reply to me by talking about the problems of non-passing TWs and completely ignore women but others had already covered it.

Also, there was nothing to add that someone else hadn't already said so I could just sit back.

I love the smell of a self-centred hypocrite being flamed in the morning. If that makes me a bad person, shoot me.

a. she's the only one of us ever to exist in history and

As if anyone would be able to get that impression.

b. they won't immediately turn on her when she is no longer of use? The living personification of Not Like Other Girls: Transmisogyny Edition?

Not like other girls. Not like any girl. Not a girl. Full stop. Adult human male.

And we have the mysterious "they" brought in to play now.

Tedious.

Great questions! Showing my working, which cannot help but partially come from direct personal experience (I'm very sorry for daring to give a personal perspective on something that I literally am and which is directly relevant to both myself and those living similar journeys)

1: Not reliably. There is at least one oft-quoted study indicating that social class is a significant predictor of persistence amongst the cohort sampled, but that study admits flawed methodology and also conflicts with more recent ones about the overall rates of persistence. Small sample sets are, of course, often actively worse than none at all due to their potential to be hugely misleading - and it's important to examine the actual wording used - for example "20% of youth engaged in gender-nonconforming behaviour before puberty will report a transgender gender identity as an adult" isn't saying what it initially looks like it is saying.
From my own perspective, I engaged in little outright 'gender-nonconforming behaviour' before puberty and yet it was very, very clear and unwavering to me that I was transgender.
It's clear that desistence occurs. It seems to be weighted to some extent by the intensity of expressed gender incongruence. The rate of desistence may have a social component. It seems to stabilise in the critical age range around 10-13. I'm not aware of a large study that has followed up with detransitioners (2nd transitioners?) to ascertain how many of them have since retransitioned again, but I know some of them and the overwhelming stated reasons for doing so - which map directly onto other studies that have shown a sizeable portion of those who detransition do so due to encountering familial or societal prejudice and difficulty in general life.

2: I'll get back to you once we've found a good definition of what 'naturally resolve' means, because from the large numbers of adult transitioners I know who share a recurring narrative that they knew they were trans years beforehand but either didn't know how to access treatment, didn't have an 'official' diagnostic tickbox saying that they were trans as kids and thus failed to act on their feelings and assumed they would go away, or were concerned about the available technology to facilitiate their transition and expected things to change later - well, there certainly wasn't any 'resolving' going on there. I know several kids who - right now - are being denied access to treatment that would massively and positively affect the trajectory of the rest of their lives due to chronic underfunding, parental interference and the ongoing effects of a culture war that enshrines overriding their own stated experiences as a core tenet of faith. They are righteously incensed by how catastrophically they have been failed by our health service, and they will bear that anger for the rest of their lives - long after many of the current culture warriors who have been instrumental in creating this climate have moved on or died.

3: I used to think being (what I would have called transsexual at the time - always disliked that weird and clunky misleading term) was a state I wouldn't wish upon anyone. Even then, I was able to recognise that this viewpoint was largely due to the weight of societal prejudice that existed against transgender people - of course I wouldn't want to wish a harder life on anyone. I also was well aware of the practical realities of transition - they certainly don't hide that from you. I chafed against the idea that I had to somehow be sorry or ashamed for what I was - but I couldn't help but internalise it. My perspective on the matter was very heavily rooted in my own, overwhelmingly strong, experience of gender dysphoria throughout childhood. It was miserable. I certainly wouldn't want the number of unhappy people in the world to increase. However, there's an essential logical leap we're skipping over here - does the treatment make people trans, or does it increase the likelihood of them transitioning?

The only reference point I have is my own, of course: Would I have transitioned if blockers, hormones and surgery weren't available? I can't say for sure. I already had to wait some time for them and it was excruciating! Would I have been as happy as I am now? I can absolutely and categorically guarantee that answer is no.

This is just one perspective. But it's not an uncommon one.

The question presupposes that being transgender is an affliction that you 'recover' from. We've been here before, my friend.

However, there's an essential logical leap we're skipping over here - does the treatment make people trans, or does it increase the likelihood of them transitioning?

That's not the logical leap.

The treatment makes people surgically altered and reliant on non exogenous hormones to try and keep their system working in an approximate homeostasis with varying long term outcomes.

The treatment results in that 100 percent of the time.

Whether they can maintain the trans identity for the rest of their lives is the unanswered question. There is an increasing number of people for whom this is impossible and of course many that do maintain it but still haven't actually achieved the sex change that they did it all for.

Not non exogenous, just exogenous.

"any hormones entering the organism that are not produced by the patient's own endocrine glands."

ButterflyHatched

Can I please ask a rather personal question?

What was it that made you decide to reject your biological sex?

a. I'm sorry that you found out we exist. Believe me, it was vastly easier when you weren't aware people like us were even possible.
b. The alt-right. I mentioned them in the line above this. Hardly mysterious.

I see. The question was less oblique than I inferred and was actually just asking whether it's morally right for the number of people who have medically transitioned to be allowed to increase.

Yes.

People medically transition because they want to. They pursue many other treatments because they want to.

There is a popular theory in the GC 'canon' that allowing adolescents access to GNRH agonists disrupts the 'natural' process of gender identity formation. Since the vast majority of the kids waiting to be seen at the GIDS at the point where Kilgannon outlined her 'divide and conquer' strategy are now adults waiting to be seen at the GIC, and pretty much none of them have had access to blockers, shouldn't 80% of them have desisted by now if blockers disrupt this process?

Now that it's become clear that a vanishingly small number are actually getting access to blockers and a tiny number have ever had access to them in the history of the UK service, yet only a tiny proportion of people are 'naturally desisting', we seem to have moved the goalposts onto the idea that Social Transition in any form must be the factor that is disrupting this 'natural' process.

It would be a compelling argument if it weren't for the existence of trans adults, who resolutely continue to exist even if they didn't socially transition as children.

If it's true that the new guidelines for schools will be released for consultation this week, then the timing's perfect. Politicians, parents and the public are finally aware of children self IDing as different species. I've seen questions asked everywhere. Why are any schools accepting children self IDing as cats?Why are teachers too scared to challenge children acting out such a delusion? Even Starmer's office have criticised schools for failing to stop this. The links are being finally being made and people are horrified.
.
That's a game changer for this important consultation.

People medically transition because they want to. They pursue many other treatments because they want to.

Should all treatments that people 'want' be funded by the NHS?

But if they only medically transition because they 'want to', then you can stop describing these treatments as 'life-saving' and telling us all that these children will kill themselves if they aren't given puberty blockers.

Thank you for confirming that being trans and medically transitioning is nothing more than a lifestyle choice.

all the evidence I've seen seems to point toward her being furious that other people have the chance at walking an easier, less expensive road at an earlier age

Like Jazz Jennings for example?

I notice that you didn't answer directly whether you had read the Cass Review's Interim Report. If you have, you will be aware that what Cass actually wrote was:

Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.
Cass Review Interim Report pp 62-3

Teachers should not be enabling anything that could have "significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning" behind parents' backs. It shouldn't need saying, but we are where we are hence the need for the new guidelines.

When a child asks for a specific set of pronouns to be used for them, it's certainly possible to make linguistic contortions to avoid doing so, but it's starkly apparent what is occurring when it happens. That isn't neutral either - the message is very, very clear.

This kind of social transitioning is exactly what Cass was talking about above and should be avoided until there is evidence about the outcomes. It is also unfair on teachers and other pupils to have their language coerced and policed, especially in the absence of any evidence that this is of any benefit to the child in question.

That's an interestingly phrased question.

What made me decide to reject my biological sex? Well, it turns out my biological sex kind of got there first and rejected me - after urging from a couple of posters on this board, I got tested last year and it turns out that I do indeed have an AR gene mutation that reduces my body's ability to respond to testosterone.

I'm a mutant! Worst superpower ever - unless you happen to find yourself forming a female gender identity, I suppose - in which case it is pretty fortuitous! Not enough to profoundly affect the development of my external genitalia in the womb (that certainly would have saved a lot of time and discomfort), but enough to significantly delay and then reduce the impact of puberty when that arrived.

The Charing Cross GIC mentioned I might have it back when I was having appointments with them, but I don't remember ever being tested for it at the time, and it wasn't particularly relevant to my treatment pathway by that point anyway as I'd been on blockers for years before transferring across to them!

I suspect that makes me a bit of an outlier though.

For a brief and pithy answer: I'd always known something was up, but I think it was reading Tamora Pierce's Alanna: The First Adventure which caused the 'a-ha' moment where I realised this wasn't just a phase that everyone experienced.

I'd potentially be happy to discuss further via PM or in another thread but I really don't want to derail this one.