School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

No. I'm saying that there is as much a thing as a 'female body' as there is a 'lady brain' i.e. there isn't - and it's only through intellectually dishonest sleight of hand that GC ideology is able to present 'woman' as the teleological extrapolation of an essential genetic 'femaleness' which doesn't even exist.

FFS. are you an undergrad philosophy student? go and practice somewhere else.

There are lady brains: they are encased within our lady skulls which are in our lady sexed bodies. That is it.

also, (sorry, I'm posting and reading and posting and reading and trying so hard not to eat my own eyeballs)

The use of convoluted language and sentence structure reminds me of that utter charlatan: Michel Foucault. (yes, he did have interesting things to say about prison. Pity he didn't stick to that)

Speaking as a parent who was not told when both their children started transitioning at school I definately want to have my say. Where do i put my say in please?

It's a shame this thread has ended up being about Hatcheds philosophical navel gazing instead of the school guidance.

This guidance, the implications and how we respond are going to be a crucial step. I'd rather discuss that.

sorry, but the light needs to be shining on the way TRAs think.

I think upthread there was a link to feedback details

We're waiting for the consultation which is apparently coming any week now.

Leaks suggest schools will not be able to transition children without parental consent.

No such thing as a female body

erm

but how are babies made @ButterflyHatched ?

which part of the gender identity do they grow in?

Thank you. I’ll wait patiently.

In the meantime the lady brain based bar shittery in this thread is keeping me entertained 🍿

I’m too busy caring for kids and elderly parents while trying to hold down a job, think about a career, worrying about money and keep my relationship going. This is too stressful for me 😁

I completely agree that sex is something that is observed. We...deep breath...identify a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.

Good point that our current understanding of sex is manifestly different from what it was understood to be historically.

As our understanding of what sex actually is has grown, so has the 'width' of the concept it encapsulates. It has become clear that sex is, in fact, really quite fuzzy and uncertain and it covers quite a diverse range of different states. That isn't exactly an uncommon state, is it? The history of the last couple of hundred years has been pretty much characterised by our repeated discovery that things are vastly, vastly more complex than they first seemed.

I don't think we need to be bound by the historical precedent of what came before, though - in the same way that we don't need to pretend atoms are indivisible, fundamental units of matter anymore. We just need to be clear which definition we are using, and make sure it is the correct model.

Is it really so utterly implausible an idea that there are components of this vast behemoth of a concept that is sex which are both expressed and formed as part of the ongoing process of constructing a mind and identity that all humans do, and that it's possible for that process to stabilise quite early into a pattern that generates gender dysphoria? (I hope we aren't about to start denying that gender dysphoria exists as a real thing experienced by some humans - I think I might just retreat into a bowl of vodka tomato rigatoni if that happens)

This endless battle over authenticity - for control of the definition-space, forcing us right back to base principles perpetually so that we can never advance the discussion - is an unnecessary diversion reignited by Kilgannon's divide and conquer culture war to consume feminism from within.

Right

so these ‘statistically linked attributes’

what are the attributes that cisgender women and transgender women typically share?

Start your own thread @ButterflyHatched if you want to do intellectual wanging on.

You are behaving in such a stereotypical way it's actually funny. That you're denying our lived experience and turning it into an intellectual navel gazing exercise. All in order to insist that we serve your needs as demanded by your identity. No thanks.

@ButterflyHatched
You're right if you look at any scientific subject in a lot of detail, there is more complexity there than anyone realised hundreds of years ago.

For example, colours aren't discrete but on a spectrum. Age isn't just a simple whole number it's continuous, furthermore even 2 people born on the same day may have had gestational lengths different by many weeks so in a sense they will always be different ages. Speed isn't a simple concept anymore , now that we know about relativity the "speed" of any moving object only makes sense when measured relative to another object. Age, speed and colour are all social constructs.

If you put all this together any enlightened thinker in a progressive society should agree that a three year old buying a bottle of vodka and running red lights at 90mph in a lorry using their newly acquired HGV license, is all completely fine.

I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female

See, if you’d have ended that sentence slightly differently, Butterfly, I’d have agreed with it. You wrote “female” but the word should be “feminine”. Thoughts, feelings, hobbies, etc etc aren’t “female”. Female purely refers to the sexed body.

Not talking about you now, more about children and teens, but limiting feminine things to women and masculine things to men, limits human expression not expands it. Women can have many masculine interests, clothes, feelings generally seen as ‘masculine’, and men can, in the same way, be feminine. I find it sad that today, after the ‘gender-bending’ of the 70s and 80s, children feel so in thrall to regressive stereotyping.

I think bollocks is pretty right about much of this post.

You are trying to frame the concept that most feminists believe as essentialism. That is flawed.

"I'm saying that there is as much a thing as a 'female body' as there is a 'lady brain' i.e. there isn't - and it's only through intellectually dishonest sleight of hand that GC ideology is able to present 'woman' as the teleological extrapolation of an essential genetic 'femaleness' which doesn't even exist."

Hands up wims, anyone on here believe there is a 'lady brain'? No?

Well, that would be right considering it seems that activities tend to create the same pathways in people who do those activities or have those interest.

Sorry, women's brain are on average smaller AND they are shaped differently to fit our skulls. There IS physical differences but nope, not 'lady brain'.

Anyone are believe there is a 'female body'? yes?

Absolutely.

There has been a medical and biological definition of female humans for as long as those professions have existed.

Today, those professions have the technology to accurately categorise all human beings into either the male or the female sex category.

You keep trying to push your ideological beliefs here that simply don't match material reality.

Of course, a female body EXISTS! how bizarre of you to keep on conflating some kind of biological essentialism with feminism.

Just to repeat, a female body does not mean that any female person must fulfil a 'gendered role' in life. This continued doubling down is dishonest by this point.

Women are a biological reality. They don’t need to be validated by men in this way.

It’s exhausting though to see how dismissive of women you are

I pretty much agree with you on most this, for what it's worth - but I'd like to respectfully disagree that 70's/80's 'gender bending' was the apex of diverse expression in human history. There's a significant perceptive skew at work here, especially in relation to the difference between celebrities challenging gendered norms for shock/spice value as part of their general persona and/or performance as artists, and wider 'ground level' cultural acceptance of these norms being systematically challenged on a daily, practical basis.

'The history of the last couple of hundred years has been pretty much characterised by our repeated discovery that things are vastly, vastly more complex than they first seemed.'

It's not complicated. We're sexually dichotomous mammals. Nothing has changed.

Aye, there's been a power of wanging on here lately.

Where are these bloody guidelines?!

So, I have continued to look and there is no search engine results for

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive

I can only at this point think that the paragraph is made up.

The lack of coherent thought in this is clear.

And just because one individual doesn't wish to be subject to established and proven science, doesn't mean the rest of us should be redefined to suit that person's need to detach us from material reality.

Please hatched stop trying to use biological essentialism to represent any feminist's belief. It just shows complete dishonesty and it is misogynistic. You must hate women who disagree with you so much that you lie about what we believe.

No. I'm saying that there is as much a thing as a 'female body' as there is a 'lady brain' i.e. there isn't -

What the fuck is this thing under my head then!

It it desperation day or something? Tea on the other thread with the Nazis and no female bodies on this one. The long days are a struggle, I do understand 😭

Mishy went off to get the new biology and never came back with it.

pink and blue toys and brains in the past

Who had pink and blue toys? I feel deprived. Everything in the 70s was brown and orange.