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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

674 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/06/2023 10:36

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Schools to be banned from letting kids change gender if parents say no

SCHOOLS will be banned from letting kids change their gender if their parents say no, The Sun can reveal. And children who want to be called by another pronoun — he, she, they — will not be able to…

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak

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26
Datun · 22/06/2023 11:26

I'm heartened to hear teens are taking the piss with nonsense identities. Nothing like ridicule for showing the truth.

Indeed. As a previous poster pointed out, not believing gender woo is now considered rebellious 😁

To be fair, many parents did anticipate that it would go full circle. As soon as the adults start to approve of it, the kids will think fuck that.

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 11:28

The Scottish RSHP teachings are all available online. While there is a fair amount in there to criticise (not least some very odd teachings on 'gender') they really do, at least in the early years, make a solid stand on combatting sex stereotypes.

Our kids have had schools and teachers that are really good on even handedly treating girls and boys equably, questioning stereotypes, and most people in the community (a very diverse mix of classes and cultures) are fairly relaxed about gender non conforming children, as far as I'm aware.

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ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 11:44

It's interesting that this has been forced through the official institutions - schools, NHS, government. Instead of that lending authority to the ideology, which it did for a while, what's happened is that people start to ask questions, twig that it's bullshit, being forced onto people by coercion, and that then undermines faith in authority.

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Datun · 22/06/2023 12:01

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 11:44

It's interesting that this has been forced through the official institutions - schools, NHS, government. Instead of that lending authority to the ideology, which it did for a while, what's happened is that people start to ask questions, twig that it's bullshit, being forced onto people by coercion, and that then undermines faith in authority.

Yes.

It's the lost last chapter of 1984.

The Toppling of Big Brother.

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2023 12:07

DialSquare · 22/06/2023 07:47

I was obsessed with football at school. It still plays a massive part in my life. It's never made me question anything about myself. Im just a female who loves football.

I suspect that Hatched means American football? Even so, hobbies and preferences still don't define sex...

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 12:21

Datun · 22/06/2023 12:01

Yes.

It's the lost last chapter of 1984.

The Toppling of Big Brother.

Let's bloody well hope so!

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SunnyEgg · 22/06/2023 12:23

Even so, hobbies and preferences still don't define sex...

I can’t believe we’ve got to a place with a ‘progressive’ trend throughout many societies where this has to be said

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2023 12:43

Agree with you, @Datun . And when retired, moneyed baby boomers start attending Pride, and when Sainsbury’s et al start ramming the rainbow down customers’ throats, the kids know it’s time to rebel.

That’s interesting to hear, @ArabeIIaScott I don’t think schools should even teach “gender” - or only bring it up for discussion as they would a religion /philosophy, and with critical thinking sharply engaged.

MalagaNights · 22/06/2023 12:52

ResisterRex · 22/06/2023 10:53

Solid, well argued article in The Critic by Miriam Cates:

thecritic.co.uk/saying-no-to-school-transition/

"We cannot duck the issue by hiding behind the (misplaced) shield of parental consent: if socially transitioning children does not meet accepted ethical standards then it should not be done. To many this may sound harsh; it is certainly firm. I have been accused of being “unloving”. But the root cause of this tragedy is that, as a society, we have lost sight of what it really means to love a child. Giving a child whatever they think they want is not love. Love is wanting what is best for a child and telling them the truth even if it’s hard to hear. Love is setting boundaries that keep children safe, and then patiently and kindly enforcing them. Love is defending children against ideologies that mean them harm, even when as adults we may pay a price for doing so."

I think Miriam Cates is spot on but I don't think the guidance, if what's been leaked, is going to do this.

The recent NHS guidance still leaves social transition at the discretion of the parents, and school guidance looks like supporting those parents who choose this will be at the discretion of the head teacher.

As the teaching unions seem fully on board with the stonewall thinking there will still likely be a lot of children in school changing names and pronouns etc.

For this to die out it'll really take: parents who support this to be widely viewed negatively, and for kids to reject it.

I have no confidence the government is going to give direct enough guidance to schools or that head trachers will push back against the parents pushing this. No one wants to be the bad guy.

We need it to be viewed differently in the culture.
That is starting to happen. But it's going to take time.

AlisonDonut · 22/06/2023 13:00

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive, but which your brain is able to derive a coherent pattern and meaning from over time

Statistically linked elements? Like an excel spreadsheet?

If it was a coherent pattern with meaning, it would be measurable right? So not intangible or elusive?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/06/2023 13:06

TheBiologyStupid · 22/06/2023 12:07

I suspect that Hatched means American football? Even so, hobbies and preferences still don't define sex...

And that's super interesting isn't it? Because soccer is (traditionally) a girl's sport in the US and a boy's sport in the UK.

So the same character trait would be potential evidence of trans identity in one culture but not another.

(See also pink, long hair, dresses, high heels, maths, cooking, etc etc...)

"Ah but", the genderists say, "the child knows what their culture expects from each gender so they choose [X] as an expression of their gender"

And that argument does indeed make sense. But if you take that position, you cannot then claim to know you were "really" a girl because you liked girl things.

The genderists can coherently claim (1) either (or none of)

is a girl -> likes girl things

Or

is a girl therefore likes girl things

But they can't coherently claim

is a girl therefore likes girl things therefore is a girl

Because that's just another circular argument

(1) coherently claim doesn't mean it's a fact, just that it's an internally consistent position

Beowulfa · 22/06/2023 13:14

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive, but which your brain is able to derive a coherent pattern and meaning from over time

Funny how much less vague and complicated the definition of women used to be when it meant denying us the vote, higher education, property ownership, professional body membership etc etc.

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2023 13:36

@Beowulfa is this how someone has defined “woman”?!

ArabeIIaScott · 22/06/2023 13:45

'a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive, but which your brain is able to derive a coherent pattern and meaning from over time'

Parklife.

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Helleofabore · 22/06/2023 14:08

AlisonDonut · 22/06/2023 13:00

a constellation of statistically linked elements that together describe something almost intangible and linguistically elusive, but which your brain is able to derive a coherent pattern and meaning from over time

Statistically linked elements? Like an excel spreadsheet?

If it was a coherent pattern with meaning, it would be measurable right? So not intangible or elusive?

That statement was quite surreal really.

It read like someone trying to convince others that a very easily defined category is actually not defined at all. And that over time, if you wear down the dissonance it may be said to be true.

It is written inpenetratively because someone thinks they can give it their own meaning and that that meaning is deep and true. When it is really just word salad and when you scrutinise it, it lacks any clear meaning at all.

Just like most of these supposedly philosophical or conceptual 'meanings' of 'woman'.

But yes, womanhood is supposedly common shared events that supposedly are intangible and over time if someone declares it enough will mean that the label woman can apply to them.

And I know this is a repeat of everyone else, but the reality is 'womanhood' is merely women and girls experience of having a body that is female (and not 'may be a little female, or has been modified to look female somewhat') with the 'events' arising from a shared experience of actually having that body.

Nothing more really.

No essences. It is absolutely tangible and it is not linguistically elusive. That seems to be the type of definition that a male makes about womanhood.

It is rather surprising that some posters really don't understand how clearly male 'elements' that they might also think are 'intangible' and 'elusive' are also very easily discernible.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/06/2023 14:13

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/06/2023 13:06

And that's super interesting isn't it? Because soccer is (traditionally) a girl's sport in the US and a boy's sport in the UK.

So the same character trait would be potential evidence of trans identity in one culture but not another.

(See also pink, long hair, dresses, high heels, maths, cooking, etc etc...)

"Ah but", the genderists say, "the child knows what their culture expects from each gender so they choose [X] as an expression of their gender"

And that argument does indeed make sense. But if you take that position, you cannot then claim to know you were "really" a girl because you liked girl things.

The genderists can coherently claim (1) either (or none of)

is a girl -> likes girl things

Or

is a girl therefore likes girl things

But they can't coherently claim

is a girl therefore likes girl things therefore is a girl

Because that's just another circular argument

(1) coherently claim doesn't mean it's a fact, just that it's an internally consistent position

Grr bloody editing error. Should say

The genderists can coherently claim (1) either (or none of)

Likes girl things therefore is a girl (but then we have the cultural issues above)

Or

is a girl therefore likes girl things (but then liking girl things can't be part of the definition of being a girl)

But they can't coherently claim

is a girl therefore likes girl things therefore is a girl

Because that's just a circular argument: I assert A therefore A.

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 14:53

Ok, guess we're doing this.

@Ereshkigalangcleg What you're doing with this GCSE-level biological sex essentialism is repeating the same mistakes that led to pink and blue toys and brains in the past. You're taking a complex dynamic system and assigning it an essential property while claiming that science says so.

The scientific community absolutely and categorically, at every level, has so far determined that 'it's not that simple'. You're swapping one mystical dualistic entity for another and then saying that the data structures that reside within our brains and encode everything about ourselves as people have no relevance to the discussion.

It's starkly clear to anyone who has formally studied or worked with neural networks, either biological or artificial, at a serious level that the notion that there's anything essentially and completely male or female about the end result of growing out a trained connectome under an enormous range of varying environmental factors is deeply flawed and I feel embarrassed for anyone who tries to seriously claim otherwise in light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don't believe in gendered souls. I don't believe in sex essence. It's an illusion - a simplification of a complex, disordered reality. I believe in arrays of pattern generators organised into feedback networks functioning as behavioural simulators to extrapolate and generate future actions based upon their classification of a history of past actions and events using clouds of statistical relationships that encode a compressed form of the world as they have encountered it so far. Our minds are simulators constantly generating the actions of the person we recognise ourselves to be. That's it. There's no magic gender soul there. Just the awkward, fuzzy, imperfect outcome of billions of tiny biomachines carving up a statistical landscape.

Is the self-classification my brain has maintained throughout and since childhood wrong? Possibly. Should I have internally 'naturally' resolved my dysphoria and become a male adult? It's a nice neat compelling argument but I'm afraid I'm rather allergic to teleology, as every other feminist should rightly be as well. I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female.

The GC philosophical stance that there is no such thing as a gendered soul - which I agree with - rightly demands that neural networks do not magically know what they are - they have to work it out - but then in the same breath...assigns an immutable, sexed essence to every neurological structure that has ever lived. There's no magic sex here, I'm afraid. The god of the gaps has shrunk once again, and this 'biological sex' claim only works on people who've never thought critically on the subject since school.

Either:

  1. Sex is an inherent, binding property that always applies in binary totality to the entirety of a human organism from the moment of conception, and people do not 'become' male or female - they just magically hold this essential essence. Growing up as and existing within a female body is thus just irrelevant window-dressing - you already have a female essence and the concept of socialisation is irrelevant. Genetic mutations are deviations from the essential sex from which all humans are derived. What you are may as well be written into the stars.
  2. Sex is a convenient shorthand we use to summarise the enormous constellation of statistically linked states that can arise from the expression of the specific structures of complex polypeptide chains that form a human organism's genetic code. Gender identity - a component of sex - is a convenient shorthand we use to summarise the enormous constellation of statistically linked states that can arise from the expression of emergent behaviours in interlinked biological neural networks grown in line with a genetically defined connectome and trained through decades of exposure to environmental and societal factors as part of embodied existence.

I know which one makes sense to me.

Brefugee · 22/06/2023 14:58

you're conflating sex and gender though there.
Sex is real, gender is a social construct and that is where the pink/blue dichotomy is dangerous.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/06/2023 14:58

What the fuckity fuck are you talking about?

I think you’re saying you’ve got a lady brain, right?

does your lady brain need a condom or the pill to stop it getting pregnant?

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2023 15:04

@ButterflyHatched Is this what 12 year olds say when they claim to want to change sex?

Helleofabore · 22/06/2023 15:04

Good grief!

where the fuck did that all come from. Quick post the link let’s look at this.

Or did you make up 1 & 2.

Igneococcus · 22/06/2023 15:07

The scientific community absolutely and categorically, at every level, has so far determined that 'it's not that simple'.

The scientific community has done no such thing when it comes to sex, that's just bollocks. For evolution all that matters is viable and fertile offspring and for that you need eggs and sperm, gender or your "ladybrain" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

ThisIsMyGCname · 22/06/2023 15:11

um, thanks….

has the guidance been published as I’m not sure where to find it. Thank you.

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 15:18

Brefugee · 22/06/2023 14:58

you're conflating sex and gender though there.
Sex is real, gender is a social construct and that is where the pink/blue dichotomy is dangerous.

I'm really, really not. Gender Identity is a convenient shorthand for describing a constellation of highly variable and sometimes time-variant attributes that together allow our brains to recognise ourselves. Gender Identity is a component of Sex.

Gender Identity is separate from, but related to in the way that it informs - our adherence to the social construct that is Gender.

8 year olds can, and regularly do, understand this concept.

FrancescaContini · 22/06/2023 15:21

Not any eight year old I’ve ever come across.