Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
19
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 14:26

Great good faith and interesting posts on this page. Nothing to add but just wanted to say I read with interest 👍

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 14:27

(also I’m going to need to investigate this chocolate fruitcake. Will I ever see my waist again? Seems doubtful)

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 14:30

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/06/2023 13:24

Here's an article from the evil Mail about a terrible tragedy that happened to a pregnant woman. There's a link at the bottom to a crowd funder raising money for the vital rehabilitation work that the NHS refuses to provide for her.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

I’ve also planted a little something. What a dreadfully sad story

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/06/2023 14:31

ScrollingLeaves · 15/06/2023 13:40

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 13:24
Here's an article from the evil Mail about a terrible tragedy that happened to a pregnant woman. There's a link at the bottom to a crowd funder raising money for the vital rehabilitation work that the NHS refuses to provide for her.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

Thanks for drawing attention to this. I added a seed.

It's such a sad story - and infuriating that the NHS can't find the money for the rehab (and we know what they're currently spending millions on - not just £££ but in terms of staff hours).

Sorry for the derail from such an interesting discussion.

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 15:09

What I'm wondering is ... if more feminists start to read the DM, will they start to shift in that direction?

The audience also influences the media.

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 15:09

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:31

HI @SerafinasGoose going to take time to read your posts properly. Thanks for a measured response.

Thanks also for making me justify mine. You've made me think!, and that's never a bad thing.

SpicyMoth · 15/06/2023 15:10

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 12:26

Precisely this.

There are plenty of handmaidens to the patriarchy in evidence on Mumsnet, of all places.

The fact that they are both reading and writing for the Mail should come as no surprise.

Me! Pick me! 💃💃💃

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression feminism and women's rights was about women being treated fairly and being able to choose what they did with their life/who they wanted to be etc?

I don't really understand why women who prefer more traditional roles are being piled on so much to be honest, as if that by default is some horrendous "slight" on others that they dare prioritise family over career.
It's a sentiment that's been growing as this thread has progressed with little comments here and there, and It's not gone unnoticed.

Some women want to be in the traditional roles, and that's fine, that's their choice, let them make that choice.

The same goes for sexiness. Women are allowed to be sexy. Someone can be sexy without being fetishized.
I don't understand why there's some pretending that that's not the case?

"The fact that they are both reading and writing for the Mail should come as no surprise.

Me! Pick me! 💃💃💃"

Of course, how dare a woman form her own opinions and make her own life decisions, how dare she.

The "pick me" rhetoric is frankly equally as harmful and misogynistic as "Karen", and it's been really disappointing to see it used on MN as opposed to the usual cesspit places of Twitter or Reddit.

Your fellow woman not agreeing with you does not automatically mean that they hold that view solely for the purpose of pleasing men, or being "picked".

You're reducing women to people that are unable to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
It implies the woman knows nothing of what she's talking about and is just saying words to impress someone.

The trans debate is a perfect example of that, the amount of times I've seen "pick me" thrown around in trans discourse by TRA's about GC movements is insane, and devolves immediately into more overt misogyny.

Ironically however, I've also never seen it used aimed at someone who is actually trying to be "picked".
Always ever aimed at long term committed or married women, who are genuinely interested in X or Y topic and have done their research. Interesting that.

It goes both ways by it's own logic too.
When you call someone a "pick me!", you're also being a "pick me!" - Just for a side of the political isle that you agree with.
It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Plunkplink · 15/06/2023 15:24

I’ve noticed a fair amount of misogyny and distain on this thread

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 15:26

SpicyMoth · 15/06/2023 15:10

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression feminism and women's rights was about women being treated fairly and being able to choose what they did with their life/who they wanted to be etc?

I don't really understand why women who prefer more traditional roles are being piled on so much to be honest, as if that by default is some horrendous "slight" on others that they dare prioritise family over career.
It's a sentiment that's been growing as this thread has progressed with little comments here and there, and It's not gone unnoticed.

Some women want to be in the traditional roles, and that's fine, that's their choice, let them make that choice.

The same goes for sexiness. Women are allowed to be sexy. Someone can be sexy without being fetishized.
I don't understand why there's some pretending that that's not the case?

"The fact that they are both reading and writing for the Mail should come as no surprise.

Me! Pick me! 💃💃💃"

Of course, how dare a woman form her own opinions and make her own life decisions, how dare she.

The "pick me" rhetoric is frankly equally as harmful and misogynistic as "Karen", and it's been really disappointing to see it used on MN as opposed to the usual cesspit places of Twitter or Reddit.

Your fellow woman not agreeing with you does not automatically mean that they hold that view solely for the purpose of pleasing men, or being "picked".

You're reducing women to people that are unable to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
It implies the woman knows nothing of what she's talking about and is just saying words to impress someone.

The trans debate is a perfect example of that, the amount of times I've seen "pick me" thrown around in trans discourse by TRA's about GC movements is insane, and devolves immediately into more overt misogyny.

Ironically however, I've also never seen it used aimed at someone who is actually trying to be "picked".
Always ever aimed at long term committed or married women, who are genuinely interested in X or Y topic and have done their research. Interesting that.

It goes both ways by it's own logic too.
When you call someone a "pick me!", you're also being a "pick me!" - Just for a side of the political isle that you agree with.
It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

My post has never been a reduction of this thread to the never-ending WOHM vs. SAHM (what passes for) ‘debate’, nor have I ever made a judgement against other women on those threads. I find the whole discussion mind-numbingly tedious, a treadmill to nowhere.

That post was made in the specific content of a peddling of regressive stereotypes by the Mail and TRAs alike. No one on this site can have been immune to the numerous posts on here by victims of domestic and sexual violence, who post for help and within 2-mins the predicable NAMALTs turn up – without fail, to tell women off for daring to assert their own rights not to be abused or put upon, and to ask them to consider the feelings of men. This stance is far more insulting and offensive than the fairly benign rejoinder of referring to such people as ‘handmaidens’, and I have absolutely no compunction about doing so.

The whole TRA movement is predicated on just such nonsense. It’s exactly the same as the backdated stereotypes the Mail peddles morning, noon and night – including admonitions at the hands of its so-called confessional journalists - and it’s all intended to put women back into their boxes.

Women can choose to do whatever they want. I don’t care one iota about your lifestyle choices. They don’t affect me. But IMO reducing feminism to ‘choice’, when it’s been a fight to the death in some cases against the serious curtailment of the rights of female people, to be a copout of enormous magnitude.

I make no apology for the use of those terms. In that context, they’re exceptionally mild.

DarrellRiversCriminalBehaviourOrder · 15/06/2023 15:30

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 14:19

Keep them close. I've never subscribed to that - keep a close and wary eye on them would be better. Ditto your enemies enemy is your friend - very often they're yours as well. The only dictum about enemies I follow is to never stop them when they're making a mistake.

You're certainly supposed to know them.

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/06/2023 17:41

I’m finding the discussion on this thread very interesting, so just placemarking to receive notifications of new posts.

HareRaising · 15/06/2023 17:42

OldGardinia · 15/06/2023 08:43

I was at a Women's Place meeting a few years back and if I had a penny for every time someone had said some variant of "Now, I know this is from the Daily Mail but..." then I'd have, probably around 50p. Which isn't a large amount financially but is as an indicator of how people are hung up about being perceived as Right Wing.

I actually am right wing so to me it's a non-issue. I read the Times when I read a paper because it has much more depth and more global focus but I don't look down on Daily Mail readers. Which is what someone does every time they feel compelled to excuse quoting it. That's what everybody was doing at the Women's Place meeting: prefacing their statements with 'I'm not like them. I am better than them'. Lovely people there for the most part, good people, with good aims. But still instilled with this horror of being associated with the right. Or maybe it's just fear - fear that if perceived so their statement will carry less weight or be dismissed and unheard. I can see the latter, it happens. I remember as a kid laughing along with things like the "Daily Mail Headline Generator" where you'd click a button on the website and it would show you a mockup with something like "Illegal Immigrants Gave Princess Diana Aids to Steal Benefits". And I never batted an eye at Student Unions getting the Daily Mail banned from on-campus shops. I'd just received the opinion that Daily Mail was an evil propaganda paper for bigots and accepted that. What is very sinister is that I can't remember from where I ever got that belief or when. It was just something I "knew".

In any case, it's kind of funny how The Guardian is 'our' paper but we disagree with most of the stuff printed in it or at least see major flaws (like the one about Black girls being disproportionately targeted for strip searches which fell apart completely under the most superficial examination); whilst the Daily Mail keeps on coming out with stuff that we do agree with but is 'their' paper.

Nor is it a new thing. The Guardian argued FOR American slavery for the sake of Britain's economy, whilst The Spectator campaigned against American slavery. The Guardian has ever been the mouthpiece of the Establishment. Just the Left Wing mouthpiece. It's far more propaganda than the Daily Mail which like it or not, does actually reflect the views of more typical working British people.

This whole thread reminds me of that conversation between Stella Creasy, MP and a

Superb post. I too am right wing and unapologetic about it.

DemiColon · 15/06/2023 17:48

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 15:09

What I'm wondering is ... if more feminists start to read the DM, will they start to shift in that direction?

The audience also influences the media.

How do you see that playing out?

I suspect that a lot of the stuff that is being pegged as anti-women is actually there to appeal mainly to women. Celebrity gossip, stuff about clothes, the royals, etc - those are things many women like to read about and engage with.

The exception might be some of the racier photos, but even then, I'm not sure it's always the case. Many women's pulp type fashion mags are full of skimpy clothed pictures of women. It's not like women are always nice, middle school nastiness, among other things, is also part of who we can be.

I could see them having more diversity in the views of their writers, that seems to fit them pretty well really, but not getting rid of things that appeal to a lot of women.

HareRaising · 15/06/2023 17:52

Women can choose to do whatever they want. I don’t care one iota about your lifestyle choices. They don’t affect me. But IMO reducing feminism to ‘choice’, when it’s been a fight to the death in some cases against the serious curtailment of the rights of female people, to be a copout of enormous magnitude.

This. And choices are never made in a vacuum.

OldGardinia · 15/06/2023 18:12

@SerafinasGoose
"My post has never been a reduction of this thread to the never-ending WOHM vs. SAHM (what passes for) ‘debate’, nor have I ever made a judgement against other women on those threads. I find the whole discussion mind-numbingly tedious, a treadmill to nowhere."

I think you've over-extended yourself here. I got a very definite disapproving tone from some of your posts especially regarding women who regret some of their choices work wise and now prefer to spend time with their kids. Would that more had the luxury of the choice! You fairly clearly were casting their viewpoints as propaganda but if that's what they feel why shouldn't they say that to others as a heads-up. I know quite a few women who feel the social expectations on them when young led them down a path they at least partly regret. And I suspect you don't think feminism sets "social expectations" but I assure you for a lot of Middle Class women over the past few decades it absolutely has. I think now we are happily seeing a counter-movement which is bringing it back to a more neutral state of "women should have the same opportunities and be free to choose" rather than "women should be men but better". Sadly whilst the former is the type of feminism I grew up with, the latter is what most of the general public think of as "Feminism". Which is why most women don't identify as feminists.

And I think a significant part of that is the way the Progressive Left entwined itself with the feminist movement, to the point that we have people to this day who consider Feminism intrinsically a Left Wing position and get quite upset by right-wing feminists and think it's a contradiction in terms. Sadly for Feminism the Progressive Left has a new favourite cause to ride on which is the trans movement. They just weren't getting many gains anymore out of women as a minority cause.

I say "sadly for feminism" but honestly it's quite good. Disentangling women's rights from socialists and "gender is a product of colonialism nuclear family boo deconstruct society" types makes it a lot easier to support women's rights without finding yourself supporting a whole lot of other baggage you don't agree with. It even means you can read the Daily Mail and be a feminist, if that's how you choose to self-describe.

I want to add one more thing. You said that media manipulation is very subtle. In fact, most of the time, it is not. It's Dylan Murphey's face on a beer can, it's Pink News turning off the comments section everytime their article is about trans women, it's stories about how Gadaffi is issuing viagra to the Libyan army to better rape rebels, it's out and out lies about what someone said. It's been shown that the media is actually quite poor and changing what people think. What it's very good at is controlling what people think about. And for that, it's pretty vital that organs like the Daily Mail are not allowing this discussion to be so one-sided or memory holed entirely.

I'm not being over-dramatic when I say there are very powerful forces with very deep pockets pushing much of this agenda. Most propaganda isn't effective because it convinces people. It's effective because it intimidates people. When the symbols and the message is everywhere and powerful people keep trumpeting it, that's a challenge to people to dare to oppose it and be punished as an example, and if not feel quietly powerless. The former is of course just a means of achieving the latter. If there's a single point in my post that is most important it is this. Being unconvinced by propaganda doesn't mean it hasn't worked. It's purpose is to silence dissent.

I honestly haven't seen anything in the Daily Mail that tells me that its readership are terrible people and it's some kind of devil's bargain that will bring a lot of terrible things along with criticizing the current trans lobby. Your criticism seems to be largely along the lines of it being generally pro-nuclear family and having women writing in it who (rather fortunately) seem to be able to espouse raising kids.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 19:00

Some posts on this thread for me to re-read with a great deal of attention. Thanks all.

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 19:07

@OldGardinia there are a lot of detailed and thoughtful points here. Without requoting the whole:

I think you've over-extended yourself here. I got a very definite disapproving tone from some of your posts especially regarding women who regret some of their choices work wise and now prefer to spend time with their kids.

I appreciate that's how it might have come across. I was writing of examples that came into my head at the time - there are numerous others - but the issue here is the consistency of that approach. What frustrates me is that the women they constantly wheel out to write this stuff are, almost without exception, taking a 'back to home and duty' type of stance, illustrating how those who have transgressed will rue the day once they're older and wiser. It's patronising and it's transparent. My issue is with the regular bombardment of their readership with articles taking this kind of stance, without scope for balance, discussion or questioning.

If I'm irritated that working women are represented in the DM as 'ballbreakers', I also expressed equal discomfiture with their (frequent) stance that those who don't work are economically inactive, lazy, or gold-diggers who simply want to live off their husbands. I find that attitude - and it's there a lot of it in their pages - equally reprehensible. You only need to look at the comments from men saying 'women are leaches, no wonder men don't want to get attached to them', to see that the shot's gone home.

The point is it doesn't matter WHERE you sit on the SAH or WOH spectrum: you'll be criticized by that publication because you are female. Okay not all the time - and they have done some good stuff relating to women, as evidenced by the above link. But in general, the picture holds true.

Sadly for Feminism the Progressive Left has a new favourite cause to ride on which is the trans movement. They just weren't getting many gains anymore out of women as a minority cause.

Sadly indeed, but not in the way you seem to imply. Women are not a minority, but we are the only majority to have traditionally been treated as one. The idea that the feminist battles for equality have been won, and feminists needed something new to do with their time, simply isn't true. Don't forget these activists came for us - they are the ones maintaining a sustained assault on the painfully slow ground women had already gained.

We'll leave aside whether TRA falls under the banner of 'progressive left'. To my mind this is old-school, right-wing, male rights activism. But as the ground between left and right is increasingly blurred and less meaningful these days, I don't suppose it matters.

We also disagree about the subtlety of MSM manipulation. The fact that sometimes it has all the nuance and delicacy of a JCB digger doesn't mean the covert discourses are absent from its content, or that they shy from bending the truth. Practically everyone knows not to believe everything they read in the papers.

I say "sadly for feminism" but honestly it's quite good. Disentangling women's rights from socialists and "gender is a product of colonialism nuclear family boo deconstruct society" types makes it a lot easier to support women's rights without finding yourself supporting a whole lot of other baggage you don't agree with. It even means you can read the Daily Mail and be a feminist, if that's how you choose to self-describe.

I've not claimed otherwise. I've commented on media practices in general. As for 'feminism' being in disagreement with other branches of feminism, things have been that way since time immemorial. The 20s had their own version of woman citizen vs. 'wages for housework' and these were vociferously opposed. It's been some of the most bitterly contested ground of the 20th century. I don't hold with third-wave feminism in the slightest, for example, but that isn't to suggest it's not 'feminism'.

I'm not being over-dramatic when I say there are very powerful forces with very deep pockets pushing much of this agenda. Most propaganda isn't effective because it convinces people. It's effective because it intimidates people.

On this point we fully agree.

I honestly haven't seen anything in the Daily Mail that tells me that its readership are terrible people and it's some kind of devil's bargain that will bring a lot of terrible things along with criticizing the current trans lobby. Your criticism seems to be largely along the lines of it being generally pro-nuclear family and having women writing in it who (rather fortunately) seem to be able to espouse raising kids.

I've never suggested its readership are terrible people. It's the most widely read paper in this country. There will be a reason for this. But I also suspect there are few people who read any news/media outlet and are fully passive absorbers of every word they write. The 'Oh, no! apologies for the DM link' disclaimers we so often see on MN are disingenuous. It's so obvious those people read it, and are in denial.

And yes, I'm critical of the Mail's overall contempt for and objectification of women. This is the case whether they are 'golddiggers' or 'selfish ballbreakers' for not working or working respectively, for their hideous comments about IVF mothers (never dads), and for their vociferous, misogynistic (there's no other word for it) campaigns against particular women, of which Meghan Markle is the most extreme example.

No one can name a male equivalent who's attracted that amount of vitriol. The reasons as to why is obvious.

HareRaising · 15/06/2023 19:14

We'll leave aside whether TRA falls under the banner of 'progressive left'. To my mind this is old-school, right-wing, male rights activism

Your post was not aimed at me but I really disagree with you on this point. Transactivism is not 'falling under the banner' of the progressive left - it is actively championed at every turn by the Left. So much so that the Left see the 'what is a woman' question as bigotry in itself and refuse to answer.

Yes there are right wing misogynists of course but I think that the Left needs to own this shit.

SunnyEgg · 15/06/2023 19:17

HareRaising · 15/06/2023 19:14

We'll leave aside whether TRA falls under the banner of 'progressive left'. To my mind this is old-school, right-wing, male rights activism

Your post was not aimed at me but I really disagree with you on this point. Transactivism is not 'falling under the banner' of the progressive left - it is actively championed at every turn by the Left. So much so that the Left see the 'what is a woman' question as bigotry in itself and refuse to answer.

Yes there are right wing misogynists of course but I think that the Left needs to own this shit.

It really does. There’s a reason the media on the centre left are not being linked or quoted on this but the Telegraph to the DM are

Add in politicians and left wing organisations and it’s massively taken hold

Pp can’t berate others for reading right wing press at the same time as claiming it’s not a left wing issue - it’s only one side of the media for a reason

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 19:32

SunnyEgg · 15/06/2023 19:17

It really does. There’s a reason the media on the centre left are not being linked or quoted on this but the Telegraph to the DM are

Add in politicians and left wing organisations and it’s massively taken hold

Pp can’t berate others for reading right wing press at the same time as claiming it’s not a left wing issue - it’s only one side of the media for a reason

Both fair points. It's interesting that feminists have been referred to by this lobby as 'fascists' (and worse). It's a two-edged sword, with the argument about 'radical' feminists supposedly being tainted by association with the likes of the US Christian alt-right. The idea of myself, for one, as a pro-lifer who seeks the denial of abortion and women's bodily autonomy is particularly left of field (forgive the expression).

But because the left's traditionally been the ground on which battles for the marginalized have been fought, a betrayal from that direction somehow stings so much more than when it comes from the right.

On reflection, you're right. They need to be made answerable, and shouldn't be given an easy out.

SunnyEgg · 15/06/2023 19:50

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 19:32

Both fair points. It's interesting that feminists have been referred to by this lobby as 'fascists' (and worse). It's a two-edged sword, with the argument about 'radical' feminists supposedly being tainted by association with the likes of the US Christian alt-right. The idea of myself, for one, as a pro-lifer who seeks the denial of abortion and women's bodily autonomy is particularly left of field (forgive the expression).

But because the left's traditionally been the ground on which battles for the marginalized have been fought, a betrayal from that direction somehow stings so much more than when it comes from the right.

On reflection, you're right. They need to be made answerable, and shouldn't be given an easy out.

Language is a battle ground and apart from pointless insults it’s a tactic by TRAs to try to silence women

Fascist has no more meaning than ‘cis’ or ‘assigned at birth’ or ‘non men’

All designed to attack women and remove their voice and reality

SpicyMoth · 15/06/2023 20:33

OldGardinia · 15/06/2023 18:12

@SerafinasGoose
"My post has never been a reduction of this thread to the never-ending WOHM vs. SAHM (what passes for) ‘debate’, nor have I ever made a judgement against other women on those threads. I find the whole discussion mind-numbingly tedious, a treadmill to nowhere."

I think you've over-extended yourself here. I got a very definite disapproving tone from some of your posts especially regarding women who regret some of their choices work wise and now prefer to spend time with their kids. Would that more had the luxury of the choice! You fairly clearly were casting their viewpoints as propaganda but if that's what they feel why shouldn't they say that to others as a heads-up. I know quite a few women who feel the social expectations on them when young led them down a path they at least partly regret. And I suspect you don't think feminism sets "social expectations" but I assure you for a lot of Middle Class women over the past few decades it absolutely has. I think now we are happily seeing a counter-movement which is bringing it back to a more neutral state of "women should have the same opportunities and be free to choose" rather than "women should be men but better". Sadly whilst the former is the type of feminism I grew up with, the latter is what most of the general public think of as "Feminism". Which is why most women don't identify as feminists.

And I think a significant part of that is the way the Progressive Left entwined itself with the feminist movement, to the point that we have people to this day who consider Feminism intrinsically a Left Wing position and get quite upset by right-wing feminists and think it's a contradiction in terms. Sadly for Feminism the Progressive Left has a new favourite cause to ride on which is the trans movement. They just weren't getting many gains anymore out of women as a minority cause.

I say "sadly for feminism" but honestly it's quite good. Disentangling women's rights from socialists and "gender is a product of colonialism nuclear family boo deconstruct society" types makes it a lot easier to support women's rights without finding yourself supporting a whole lot of other baggage you don't agree with. It even means you can read the Daily Mail and be a feminist, if that's how you choose to self-describe.

I want to add one more thing. You said that media manipulation is very subtle. In fact, most of the time, it is not. It's Dylan Murphey's face on a beer can, it's Pink News turning off the comments section everytime their article is about trans women, it's stories about how Gadaffi is issuing viagra to the Libyan army to better rape rebels, it's out and out lies about what someone said. It's been shown that the media is actually quite poor and changing what people think. What it's very good at is controlling what people think about. And for that, it's pretty vital that organs like the Daily Mail are not allowing this discussion to be so one-sided or memory holed entirely.

I'm not being over-dramatic when I say there are very powerful forces with very deep pockets pushing much of this agenda. Most propaganda isn't effective because it convinces people. It's effective because it intimidates people. When the symbols and the message is everywhere and powerful people keep trumpeting it, that's a challenge to people to dare to oppose it and be punished as an example, and if not feel quietly powerless. The former is of course just a means of achieving the latter. If there's a single point in my post that is most important it is this. Being unconvinced by propaganda doesn't mean it hasn't worked. It's purpose is to silence dissent.

I honestly haven't seen anything in the Daily Mail that tells me that its readership are terrible people and it's some kind of devil's bargain that will bring a lot of terrible things along with criticizing the current trans lobby. Your criticism seems to be largely along the lines of it being generally pro-nuclear family and having women writing in it who (rather fortunately) seem to be able to espouse raising kids.

Wholly agree with everything here, first paragraph is very much the impression I got from reading through this thread - you've put it far better than I did though!

turbonerd · 15/06/2023 21:05

HareRaising · 15/06/2023 17:42

Superb post. I too am right wing and unapologetic about it.

I will come across as a bit dim now, but would you want to explain a little what are the right wing views you hold?
(as opposed to what is condidered left in the UK).
I haven’t lived in the UK for over 10 years, and the political landscape seem to have sort of shifted so I am curious.

To offer some of my own views to show I am asking in good faith, I notice my tolerance for violent offenders and my view on the possibility for rehabilitation for violent offenders has changed to thinking it doesn’t work as well as I hoped.
I am also more in favour of keeping a fairly strict asylum policy - to facilitate integration into our society and values.

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 21:28

DemiColon · 15/06/2023 17:48

How do you see that playing out?

I suspect that a lot of the stuff that is being pegged as anti-women is actually there to appeal mainly to women. Celebrity gossip, stuff about clothes, the royals, etc - those are things many women like to read about and engage with.

The exception might be some of the racier photos, but even then, I'm not sure it's always the case. Many women's pulp type fashion mags are full of skimpy clothed pictures of women. It's not like women are always nice, middle school nastiness, among other things, is also part of who we can be.

I could see them having more diversity in the views of their writers, that seems to fit them pretty well really, but not getting rid of things that appeal to a lot of women.

I wonder if they are finding a new audience among so many who are unable to find reporting on some stories elsewhere. And whether when they get engagement on some stories it encourages more of that ilk.

Plunkplink · 15/06/2023 22:30

Regarding the photos of women in the daily Mail. It’s a known thing that women like looking at pictures of women, men also like looking at women but the two generally have a different gaze.