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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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19
BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 15/06/2023 12:10

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 12:03

Don’t those women count?

We know by now, surely, that women are only afforded full human status if they perform correctly and do as they're told.

🙄

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 12:12

Let’s park my MIL, she can take it

now, about the fact that individual journalists at the Mail took a chance in reporting on this

acknowledge / not acknowledge?

celebrate / not celebrate?

and in with regard to ‘paper for women’

your thoughts on the circulation figures Indicating that this could indeed be considered to be the case?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 12:24

I'm loath to insert myself into this battle of titans @BernardBlacksMolluscs and @BodgerLovesMashedPotato (don't want to get trampled), but when it was founded it was specifically to appeal to women. It was the first paper aimed at them - Northcliffe recognised there was a market for a paper with 'women's interest' features. As this article says, 'Criticisms from feminists and the left have been easy to brush off while the Mail’s tried–and–trusted formula remains appealing to a sufficient number of readers; indeed, the success of Mailonline, the paper’s sister website, suggests that the formula is more successful than ever. The Mail is likely to continue to entertain and infuriate women in equal measure.'

https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/adrian-bingham-womans-realm-daily-mail-female-readers

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 12:26

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 12:03

Don’t those women count?

We know by now, surely, that women are only afforded full human status if they perform correctly and do as they're told.

Precisely this.

There are plenty of handmaidens to the patriarchy in evidence on Mumsnet, of all places.

The fact that they are both reading and writing for the Mail should come as no surprise.

Me! Pick me! 💃💃💃

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 12:44

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 12:24

I'm loath to insert myself into this battle of titans @BernardBlacksMolluscs and @BodgerLovesMashedPotato (don't want to get trampled), but when it was founded it was specifically to appeal to women. It was the first paper aimed at them - Northcliffe recognised there was a market for a paper with 'women's interest' features. As this article says, 'Criticisms from feminists and the left have been easy to brush off while the Mail’s tried–and–trusted formula remains appealing to a sufficient number of readers; indeed, the success of Mailonline, the paper’s sister website, suggests that the formula is more successful than ever. The Mail is likely to continue to entertain and infuriate women in equal measure.'

https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/adrian-bingham-womans-realm-daily-mail-female-readers

That is really interesting. Thank you!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 12:44

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 12:26

Precisely this.

There are plenty of handmaidens to the patriarchy in evidence on Mumsnet, of all places.

The fact that they are both reading and writing for the Mail should come as no surprise.

Me! Pick me! 💃💃💃

Is it not a little more complicated than that?

women are still women, even if you disagree with them. They will still face the discrimination and lack of access to opportunities that all women face because of their sex. Plenty of them will even know it. They just like reading the mail. Maybe they like looking at pictures of feminine young people like Dylan Mulvaney flaunting their pins. Maybe they are firmly right wing and nationalist and prefer a news source aligned with their views. Maybe they relish a paper that isn’t afraid to make moral judgments when it comes to violence towards women and children. Maybe they like the TV guide

but the point is that they and their views are valid too, and you dismiss them wholesale at your peril

ArabeIIaScott · 15/06/2023 12:50

Yeah, I find 'handmaidens to the patriarchy' pretty unhelpful, tbh. Does one become a 'handmaiden' by reading the Mail? One article, or reading it twice a week? Or by thinking the wrong thoughts?

Actually thank you, because I've just realised and acknowledged that I don't like that term.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 12:58

Yeah I don’t like handmaiden and would never use it as a pejorative

but I take a ‘you do you’ view on it

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:02

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 12:44

Is it not a little more complicated than that?

women are still women, even if you disagree with them. They will still face the discrimination and lack of access to opportunities that all women face because of their sex. Plenty of them will even know it. They just like reading the mail. Maybe they like looking at pictures of feminine young people like Dylan Mulvaney flaunting their pins. Maybe they are firmly right wing and nationalist and prefer a news source aligned with their views. Maybe they relish a paper that isn’t afraid to make moral judgments when it comes to violence towards women and children. Maybe they like the TV guide

but the point is that they and their views are valid too, and you dismiss them wholesale at your peril

You can think right-wing nationalism a valid view if you want to. I shall beg to differ, and have no compunction in arguing against such views vociferously.

As to your other points, for sure it’s more complicated. Media manipulation is subtle. In certain ways it acts along similar lines to the way the fairy tale has operated since pre-literate societies: it holds up often didactic paradigms of ‘desired’ femininity, and in doing so manipulates females into desiring conformity with these. Of course, from that end, the Northcliffe groups would have aimed their publications at a female readership (not least for the advertising revenue this would bring). But I remain unconvinced that catering fully to women’s interests was the publishing outcome, even if this was the original intention.

If you want the TV guide or the crossword, fine. These observations don’t apply. If you read past their content with a very critical lens, they don’t apply there, either. But the way they write their articles – particularly those written by the female ‘confessional’ journalists – particularly as regards the evils of feminism and the security and safety of the patriarchy, is where you find the problem.

Cf. the reams of articles by women who remained in the workplace and became convinced it harmed their children and that it was all THEIR fault – no mention of dad. These are the ones who in Mailspeak have ‘reformed’ their evil, feminist ways: who have remained in the workplace or decided not to have children but later, and with wisdom, decided that The Law of the Father really did know best all along.

The idea that women want men simply to siphon off their bank accounts is common mail fodder. There are hideous accounts of Amber Heard, Meghan Markle, and various other women that are like sticking up a board for readers to throw darts at (which, in the comments, they frequently do). The coverage of race days is shocking – terrible pictures of women behaving drunkenly whilst the men are left alone. There are women journalists who proclaim they are beautiful (ok) but with the full intention of proving how females are utterly hideous to one another and are claw-jostling, handbag-wielding, jealous antagonists to each other (not ok), to wives who let their husbands dress them. Most weeks have articles that are variations on these themes.

I could go on. But the above represents a reasonably holistic picture.

I don’t buy that this is simply catering to the validity of all women’s views. It’s media manipulation and practically every other line drips with misogyny.

Which moves aside from the point as to whether its coverage of the recent state of women’s rights isn’t courageous or desirable. It’s both, and it’s very welcome. This doesn’t negate the above.

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:04

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 12:58

Yeah I don’t like handmaiden and would never use it as a pejorative

but I take a ‘you do you’ view on it

No problem. I'm well aware it's not popular. But on occasion - particularly on the sexual abuse threads where pandering to 'what about the men' is not only unnecessary but downright offensive - IMO it's appropriate. Provocative and probably incendiary for sure, as it certainly gets a lot of backs up, but appropriate.

We shall beg to differ,

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:05

If you want the TV guide or the crossword, fine. These observations don’t apply

Phew, I have Approved Reader status. What a relief.

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:06

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:05

If you want the TV guide or the crossword, fine. These observations don’t apply

Phew, I have Approved Reader status. What a relief.

If you read my post, it isn't a question of approval.

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:07

NB. I'm a Mail reader myself, amongst numerous other media outlets. I could hardly have formed such views if I wasn't.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:08

I did read your post, and it occurred to me that for someone who despises the Mail and all it stands for, you have made a remarkably close and detailed study of it. Also that you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the intelligence of its readership.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:09

Why are you a Mail reader?

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 15/06/2023 13:13

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:09

Why are you a Mail reader?

I know this isn't aimed at me, but thought I'd answer - because I always read a number of different publications and viewpoints from other "sides" for want of a better expression- as I think it's really important to, otherwise you risk echo chambers, and never having to question your own beliefs or thoughts every now and again which I think is a healthy thing to do

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/06/2023 13:16

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:07

NB. I'm a Mail reader myself, amongst numerous other media outlets. I could hardly have formed such views if I wasn't.

Yes it read as an informed post. It’s interesting and I echo the question about why you read it

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/06/2023 13:24

Here's an article from the evil Mail about a terrible tragedy that happened to a pregnant woman. There's a link at the bottom to a crowd funder raising money for the vital rehabilitation work that the NHS refuses to provide for her.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

My partner gave birth while she was in a coma

Emma Taylor collapsed last October at the couple's Chelmsford home when the tumour, of which she had been unaware, burst at the back of her skull.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

SerafinasGoose · 15/06/2023 13:25

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:08

I did read your post, and it occurred to me that for someone who despises the Mail and all it stands for, you have made a remarkably close and detailed study of it. Also that you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the intelligence of its readership.

Your last two posts have made me think. I'm responding to these in good faith and as honestly as possible.

First up - my reading of the Mail is less a close and detailed study than observations picked up over time. I could respond in similar detail to the antics of the Guardian, the sacking (or constructive dismissal, at least) of columnists whose views I valued (Suzanne Moore), merely because of a political desire to capitulate to a specific ideology and to silence those who don't. That paper is a far worse letdown, IMO, than the Mail. It's less the Mail I suppose I despise, than the efforts of 'The Establishment' to manipulate the way the populace thinks. As to misogyny, unfortunately they are by no means the only culprit.

I also don't think that the old left/right ideological divide exists in that state anymore. This therefore isn't a response to people's individual politics. Read The Times, and it propounds views that are very similar to the Mail. It just uses fewer images and more refined language (which says nothing about its writers or readership other than aspiration) and it markets itself to a different readership. If you compare article content there's barely a Rizla between them. They have also closed off comments to anyone other than those posting under their genuine names, which in the current political climate leaves people open to sacking, doxing etc. That's not an exaggeration. I've seen it happen.

I'm saying nothing about the intelligence of readers of any publication, or their ability to read with a critical eye. I'm sure plenty do. I'm speaking solely to the subtly devious machinations of a cynical media, of which UK media is particularly intrusive and spiteful. And I find a lot of discourses on women in MSM and SM are regressing fast, and are incredibly damaging.

As to why I read The Mail? Good question. I suppose part of the reason is that I don't necessarily want to read my own views parroted back at me all the time. I want to read stuff I can challenge - and, yes, I have some GREAT fun in the comments sections which are really my primary motivation. I've also long been fascinated (and repulsed) by their attitudes to women - but also pleasantly surprised that they've been the only paper to stand up to a regressive and dangerous (IMO) ideology.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:31

HI @SerafinasGoose going to take time to read your posts properly. Thanks for a measured response.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/06/2023 13:40

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 13:24
Here's an article from the evil Mail about a terrible tragedy that happened to a pregnant woman. There's a link at the bottom to a crowd funder raising money for the vital rehabilitation work that the NHS refuses to provide for her.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

Thanks for drawing attention to this. I added a seed.

My partner gave birth while she was in a coma

Emma Taylor collapsed last October at the couple's Chelmsford home when the tumour, of which she had been unaware, burst at the back of her skull.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12195257/My-partner-gave-birth-coma.html

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 13:47

Re the Mail appeal above, it seems to be a thing that if you need help or support for a cause or a person, you send a story to the Mail and they write a piece on it, knowing that offers of help and money will be made once its publicised.

DarrellRiversCriminalBehaviourOrder · 15/06/2023 14:10

it occurred to me that for someone who despises the Mail and all it stands for, you have made a remarkably close and detailed study of it.

What is it you're supposed to do with your enemies again?

Isomissmyoldlife · 15/06/2023 14:15

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 14/06/2023 11:07

Late DGM had a FABULOUS fruitcake recipe which she gave to DM. No idea what happened to that. It was moist* and full of fruit.

*Sorry, moist haters.

Try making nigella's chocolate fruitcake. It doesn't taste of chocolate but it's the lushest thing you'll ever eat if you like fruitcake.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 15/06/2023 14:19

DarrellRiversCriminalBehaviourOrder · 15/06/2023 14:10

it occurred to me that for someone who despises the Mail and all it stands for, you have made a remarkably close and detailed study of it.

What is it you're supposed to do with your enemies again?

Keep them close. I've never subscribed to that - keep a close and wary eye on them would be better. Ditto your enemies enemy is your friend - very often they're yours as well. The only dictum about enemies I follow is to never stop them when they're making a mistake.

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