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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Post Westminster Hall Debate - what are the next steps to ensure the sex based rights of biological women

323 replies

IwantToRetire · 12/06/2023 21:14

The other thread is now full https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4800027-debate-relating-to-the-definition-of-sex-in-the-equality-act-2010-will-be-in-westminster-hall-on-12-june-2023-430pm

And what it will achieve we will have to wait and see.

But is clarifying the EA the most important campaign to ensure women's sex based rights.

Or ...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
TheBiologyStupid · 13/06/2023 21:20

Mochudubh · 13/06/2023 19:20

I've just emerged from the rabbit hole (in the Alice in Wonderland sense) of Kirsty Blackman's Twitter. The comments below the most recent threads are pure gold, she's getting a pasting. She's an utter melt.

Now she says she misspoke - "Tribunal tweets was absolutely correct that I accidentally said XY (😬🤣) [...]". (My emphasis.) But since she said in Westminster Hall that, "I have no idea what my chromosomes are. I assume that they are probably XY, but I do not know—I have not got a clue what they are" it is now clear that she deliberately misled parliament when she said that she didn't know what her chromosomes are. I hope that she gets reported to the appropriate parliamentary authorities!

Waitwhat23 · 13/06/2023 21:41

Her Wikipedia page has now been protected to stop 'persistent disruptive editing' by a editor who was determinedly adding Hansard as a source and said 'please do not disrespect our parliament by ignoring the words spoken within its hallowed walls' in respect to Kirsty's 'admission' of being trans 😄.

It has been surprisingly entertaining to watch the editing war.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 13/06/2023 22:00

Waitwhat23 · 13/06/2023 21:41

Her Wikipedia page has now been protected to stop 'persistent disruptive editing' by a editor who was determinedly adding Hansard as a source and said 'please do not disrespect our parliament by ignoring the words spoken within its hallowed walls' in respect to Kirsty's 'admission' of being trans 😄.

It has been surprisingly entertaining to watch the editing war.

As I said upthread, only the penisy kind of women get to self-identify like that.

The misogynists in charge of Wikipedia know exactly what a woman is.

IwantToRetire · 14/06/2023 00:26

Statement on the reference to suicide made during the Westminster Hall debate - Sex Matters

Spreading alarmism about suicide is unethical. Self-harm and suicidal ideation are known to be contagious. Sensational and excessive reporting has been shown to increase the likelihood of imitational suicidal behaviour among vulnerable people, including young people.

Suicide threats can also be a form of emotional abuse, used as a form of coercive control and manipulation.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/statement-on-the-reference-to-suicide-made-during-the-westminster-hall-debate/

Statement on the reference to suicide made during the Westminster Hall debate - Sex Matters

Yesterday during the debate on the definition of sex in the Equality Act, Kirsty Blackman MP referred to a trans constituent she said had contacted her: “When they heard about biological sex being included in the Equality Act and this change being made...

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/statement-on-the-reference-to-suicide-made-during-the-westminster-hall-debate

OP posts:
EpicChaos · 14/06/2023 03:16

Next steps?

For me it means looking to see if there's a gofundme me for bricks with which to rebuild Hadrians Wall, to keep those SNP harpies away out of England!
As for KB's attire, it wasn't her jamas, it was an ordnance survey map showing which planet she, Moran and the other pathetic specimens belong on because they sure as hell don't belong to this one!

Needmoresleep · 14/06/2023 11:43

When campaigning it is always worth looking back to see how far you have come.

Those that remember the dark days of only a few years ago will recognise that the debate was an achievement. Lots of very ordinary male Tory MPs giving well thought out speeches on the importance of single sex spaces, with support from a small number of Labour women. The 'other side' were only able to summon some fringe members of the SNP and Labour. The LibDems were absent. The Minister confirms that she will pursue the issue in consultation with Baroness Kishwer of the EHRC.

The Ayes had it.

OldCrone · 14/06/2023 12:19

Those that remember the dark days of only a few years ago will recognise that the debate was an achievement.

And the number of MPs attending was an improvement over a few years ago as well. This is a previous debate from 2018 about changing the GRA.

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/55146a39-db05-4cb8-b256-41ddbc47f2bc

Only about half a dozen MPs attended and David TC Davies was the only one speaking up for women. Highlights include Layla Moran saying she can see into people's souls.

Thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3429969-Watch-live-Government-debate-on-self-ID

IWillNoLie · 14/06/2023 12:27

Not RTFT but surely the next step is supporting ForWomen.Scot’s fundraiser for their appeal against the Haldane judgement. If that is upheld then the meaning of sex will have been clarified in law.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/06/2023 12:40

The Ayes had it.

If you mean the vote at the end, the motion was that they had debated the 2 petitions - not that they agreed with either of them.

(If you mean that the pro-women, pro-clarification side of the debate had better speakers, made better points, and would have 'won' if judged by an impartial observer, then I agree.)

Needmoresleep · 14/06/2023 12:46

OldCrone · 14/06/2023 12:19

Those that remember the dark days of only a few years ago will recognise that the debate was an achievement.

And the number of MPs attending was an improvement over a few years ago as well. This is a previous debate from 2018 about changing the GRA.

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/55146a39-db05-4cb8-b256-41ddbc47f2bc

Only about half a dozen MPs attended and David TC Davies was the only one speaking up for women. Highlights include Layla Moran saying she can see into people's souls.

Thread here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3429969-Watch-live-Government-debate-on-self-ID

One group who have worked very effectively behind the scenes is Conservatives for Women. Within a year (2012-2022?) they managed to encourage about half of Tory MPs to come out as gender critical, leading first to some Boris contortions till he finally agreed he knew what a woman was, to Rishi's straight forward and open confirmation. I suspect their work has also been reflected in the appointment of some good women's ministers, and presumably in the appointment of Baroness Kishwer Falkner at the EHRC.

Turning this around is moving a mountain, but there are signs that we can do it.

Next is a similar operation with Labour and LibDem MPs. (Are the SNP beyond salvation?) Each time someone claimed that the Tories were only supporting single sex spaces because of political expediency, they provided evidence that they are aware that the Labour, LibDem and SNP positions on this are electoral kryptonite.

RealityFan · 14/06/2023 13:27

At this rate, the best I think we can practically hope for is that Sunak offers gender reform as per Falkener/EHRC advice, but only as a sop in the manifesto...ie as an aim or promise if Tories win the GE.

Labour won't do the same, just mouth platitudes that Self ID won't be a priority for legislation in that first administration.

I'm thinking we need to realise the party heirarchies are more aligned than different. Forget that most Tories were GC in the Westminster Hall debate and most Lab/SNP were genderwoo, I believe there is unannounced unanimity in the Tory and Labour leaderships, both broadly in favour of more alignment in the genderwoo direction, Labour somewhat more outspoken, Tories somewhat more ambiguous.

You only have to look at the recent anti democratic legislation on stamping down on protest. Starmer has announced he won't reverse it.

I'm truly of the belief that the direction of travel on gender has less than a cigarette papers difference between the two parties, whatever individual MPs might have said a few days ago.

Boiledbeetle · 14/06/2023 13:35

IWillNoLie · 14/06/2023 12:27

Not RTFT but surely the next step is supporting ForWomen.Scot’s fundraiser for their appeal against the Haldane judgement. If that is upheld then the meaning of sex will have been clarified in law.

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1651614049941987329?s=20

If you click on the twitter link above it has the fundraiser link on it.

They curently have a stretch target of £50 000 it has 12 days left to run. They are currently at £46,037.

(or... coughs... you could buy a book of poems written by Mumsnetters with 100% of the profit going to For Women Scotland https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C739HTDK^^ )

TooBigForMyBoots · 14/06/2023 13:38

IwantToRetire · 13/06/2023 20:35

I trust Jess Philips as far as I can throw her and I am crap at throwing.

Unfortunately given how little public support women get, we can not always get the women we prefer to speak for us.

And taken the debate as a whole it is evident that not enough briefing has gone into reminding MPs of the importance of women only services. If it had she wouldn't have been the only one. Or women's groups themselves could have been more public.

What's it go to do with trust.

This is about getting into the public domain the impact of the lack of respect / outright attack on the rationale for women only services.

I dont trust the Daily Mail but am happy to share articles when they are one of the few papers to report on women's sex based rights.

I have a real concern that the underlying motive of mumsnet it syphoning on FWR into sex and gender, is achieving its actual aim. To de-politicise the feminist context of this issue. Not to be aware of the longer trend of MRAs attacking women's services, and how that continues, and how the MRAs have been able to piggy back on the TRA agenda, is allowing not only mumsnet by the public perception that this is a side issue that a few fanatics want to go on about to the exclusion of women's issues as a whole.

I have always felt that was the reason for the split, and some seem to think that is the political reality. Women's issues and then an isolated single issue campaign about trans rights and self identity vs. biology without any political link to women's issues as a whole.

(As shown by those who say why is this thread on FWR because they have accept the mumsnet dictat that it is a fringe issue for a few fanatics.)

Unfortunately given how little public support women get, we cannot always get the women we prefer to speak for us.

Wise words OP.

SunnyEgg · 14/06/2023 14:15

Needmoresleep · 14/06/2023 12:46

One group who have worked very effectively behind the scenes is Conservatives for Women. Within a year (2012-2022?) they managed to encourage about half of Tory MPs to come out as gender critical, leading first to some Boris contortions till he finally agreed he knew what a woman was, to Rishi's straight forward and open confirmation. I suspect their work has also been reflected in the appointment of some good women's ministers, and presumably in the appointment of Baroness Kishwer Falkner at the EHRC.

Turning this around is moving a mountain, but there are signs that we can do it.

Next is a similar operation with Labour and LibDem MPs. (Are the SNP beyond salvation?) Each time someone claimed that the Tories were only supporting single sex spaces because of political expediency, they provided evidence that they are aware that the Labour, LibDem and SNP positions on this are electoral kryptonite.

Thanks to those women Flowers

Needmoresleep · 14/06/2023 14:17

RealityFan · 14/06/2023 13:27

At this rate, the best I think we can practically hope for is that Sunak offers gender reform as per Falkener/EHRC advice, but only as a sop in the manifesto...ie as an aim or promise if Tories win the GE.

Labour won't do the same, just mouth platitudes that Self ID won't be a priority for legislation in that first administration.

I'm thinking we need to realise the party heirarchies are more aligned than different. Forget that most Tories were GC in the Westminster Hall debate and most Lab/SNP were genderwoo, I believe there is unannounced unanimity in the Tory and Labour leaderships, both broadly in favour of more alignment in the genderwoo direction, Labour somewhat more outspoken, Tories somewhat more ambiguous.

You only have to look at the recent anti democratic legislation on stamping down on protest. Starmer has announced he won't reverse it.

I'm truly of the belief that the direction of travel on gender has less than a cigarette papers difference between the two parties, whatever individual MPs might have said a few days ago.

I think there is a fundamental difference. I think that the Tories' initial support for self-ID came from a place of insecurity. They got Section 28 and gay marriage wrong and so were concerned not to get gender wrong and again be dubbed the nasty party. (It is important not to forget that in 2015 when Stonewall added the T, no one questioned Stonewall and its influence was everywhere.)

I suspect that none of the male MPs who talked knowledgeably and passionately about the safety of women and girls, ever really believed that a man could put on a dress and become a woman. Indeed I am pretty sure they didn't. However other than David TC Davies, who grasped early on that this was an important issue, they carried on busying themselves with affairs of state.

Over time the briefing and lobbying by so many, including the right wing media and groups like Conservatives for Women, has given them the confidence to trust their moral compass and speak out.

Quite why the equivalent, male, northern, Union backed, Labour feels unable to do the same is unclear. The climate and culture do not seem to exist, and they can see what happened to Rosie Duffield, so they will be ignoring it as a "woman's issue". (I suspect that several may already be struggling with ultra left-wing activists within their local parties, so don't want to give any additional reason for deselection.) David TC Davies had all manner of complaints and abuse thrown at him when he was the sole head above the parapet. Rosie has almost certainly had worse. They are our brave lightening rods. Lets hope that Labour MPs including JC join her in the same way that a few good Conservative MPs (Jackie Doyle-Price, Kemi and even Liz Truss did then joined by Miriam Cates and others) joined Davies, until the trickle became a stream.

ResisterRex · 14/06/2023 14:25

Clymene · 13/06/2023 20:47

I don't trust Jess Phillips because she has demonstrated she is willing to exploit the platform she has been given to raise the profile of murdered women for political point scoring.

Please don't patronise me.

Catching up and I agree with this. She gives the strong impression of political opportunist.

It was only March when she did what she did in Parliament. A mere 3 months ago.

RealityFan · 14/06/2023 14:26

Needmoresleep · 14/06/2023 14:17

I think there is a fundamental difference. I think that the Tories' initial support for self-ID came from a place of insecurity. They got Section 28 and gay marriage wrong and so were concerned not to get gender wrong and again be dubbed the nasty party. (It is important not to forget that in 2015 when Stonewall added the T, no one questioned Stonewall and its influence was everywhere.)

I suspect that none of the male MPs who talked knowledgeably and passionately about the safety of women and girls, ever really believed that a man could put on a dress and become a woman. Indeed I am pretty sure they didn't. However other than David TC Davies, who grasped early on that this was an important issue, they carried on busying themselves with affairs of state.

Over time the briefing and lobbying by so many, including the right wing media and groups like Conservatives for Women, has given them the confidence to trust their moral compass and speak out.

Quite why the equivalent, male, northern, Union backed, Labour feels unable to do the same is unclear. The climate and culture do not seem to exist, and they can see what happened to Rosie Duffield, so they will be ignoring it as a "woman's issue". (I suspect that several may already be struggling with ultra left-wing activists within their local parties, so don't want to give any additional reason for deselection.) David TC Davies had all manner of complaints and abuse thrown at him when he was the sole head above the parapet. Rosie has almost certainly had worse. They are our brave lightening rods. Lets hope that Labour MPs including JC join her in the same way that a few good Conservative MPs (Jackie Doyle-Price, Kemi and even Liz Truss did then joined by Miriam Cates and others) joined Davies, until the trickle became a stream.

Well, the suprise of the night was Jess Phillips who pretty much came down on the side of sanity.

I suspect of all the MPs in Parliament who've had to balance personal GC opinions with the pressures of "coming out", so to speak, she's the one who's likely struggled the most.

Rosie Duffield is a "mere" backbencher, never in any position of policy influence, despite huge personal abuse, she has freedom to speak out.

Jess is deep in the party heirarchy and policy making apparatus, she's had to maintain a "not rocking the boat"/consensus public face, so for her to have unambiguously come out for women's rights and definitions to be sex class-based, priority over gender, will have taken a lot of courage (I was gonna say cojones, but in an argument on sex and gender...lol).

SunnyEgg · 14/06/2023 14:28

I‘m not sure why Jess Philips is talked about more than the difficultly Labour still has with the rest of the MPs who are TWAW

The debate cleared that up for me, there is a divide between the parties tg

RealityFan · 14/06/2023 14:39

SunnyEgg · 14/06/2023 14:28

I‘m not sure why Jess Philips is talked about more than the difficultly Labour still has with the rest of the MPs who are TWAW

The debate cleared that up for me, there is a divide between the parties tg

Because it's so visible, and so dramatic when a proponent who was previously moderately TWAW or non committal, announces a newer TRA skeptical position.

Just read a Quillette article on the "anti-reality field" of this social movement.

Totally sane conventional opinions just five minutes ago are now the new superstitions.
Opinions that were more primitive than superstitions five minutes ago are now the new "science" and "reality".

Jess Phillips conveying opinions that were resolutely boring and unremarkable, now framed as beyond the pale by wider elites received opinion.

This is where we've got to in 2023.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/06/2023 14:39

Quite why the equivalent, male, northern, Union backed, Labour feels unable to do the same is unclear.

The union backing will be part of the problem. Virtually all the unions are full-on genderwoo.

ResisterRex · 14/06/2023 14:39

Jess is deep in the party heirarchy and policy making apparatus, she's had to maintain a "not rocking the boat"/consensus public face

She's in the opposition party! They're meant to challenge, oppose, shine a light on things. It's not meant to just be down to one or two backbenchers to hold the government of the day to account.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/06/2023 14:42

Party consensus, not common cause with the government.

ArabeIIaScott · 14/06/2023 14:47

ResisterRex · 14/06/2023 14:25

Catching up and I agree with this. She gives the strong impression of political opportunist.

It was only March when she did what she did in Parliament. A mere 3 months ago.

Yep. There's not anyone on the front bench I'd count as NOT a political opportunist, though ...

ResisterRex · 14/06/2023 14:56

Of course there's opportunism in politics. It's politics. It goes with the territory and I'm realistic.

But IMHO there's opportunism and then there's trampling all over women's rights and the memories of murdered women. Sometimes it's beyond the pale.