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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Antipodean fruit growers 3 - Is the Kiwi a Dodo or a Phoenix?

833 replies

Bosky · 26/05/2023 03:34

Continuation thread from Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632616-antipodean-fruit-growers-2-canary-in-the-internet-coal-mine

Front row seat on the seemingly eternal battle between Jersh (aka Suzi Quatro's Fat Nan) and his Merry Band of Farmers against the Transpowered Forces of Internet Censorship.

1st Thread - Antipodean fruit grower statement
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4620584-antipodean-fruit-grower-statement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
60
namitynamechange · 09/02/2024 09:39

I hadn't heard of LFJ let alone the alleged accusations against them (I say alleged accusations because I haven't seen any proof that accusations were made. Just TownGowns's assertions). But TownGown keeps going on and on about it, and asking people to post proof. Are you not worried about being sued for defamation yourself Towngown? Because you seem really eager to link LFJ's name to quite terrible crimes.

MacPoot · 09/02/2024 09:57

NicCageisnotNickCave · 08/02/2024 23:32

LFJ isn’t very interesting, loads of TRAs have allegedly been implicated in ‘consent accidents’, not just LFJ.

The only interesting thing about LFJ is LFJ’s obsession with Josh and Kiwi Farms…

… oh and the trans snake! That’s a pretty unique identity… but probably a few teens with snake ‘alters’ on DID TikTok.

This.

KF had no interest in Liz. Liz made himself known to the farms.

MacPoot · 09/02/2024 10:03

namitynamechange · 09/02/2024 09:39

I hadn't heard of LFJ let alone the alleged accusations against them (I say alleged accusations because I haven't seen any proof that accusations were made. Just TownGowns's assertions). But TownGown keeps going on and on about it, and asking people to post proof. Are you not worried about being sued for defamation yourself Towngown? Because you seem really eager to link LFJ's name to quite terrible crimes.

Edited

TownGown is MargaritaPie, a TRA who spams GC threads with assertions and accusations without receipts.

Unlike the farms, who have receipts of everything they post. And Josh has never accused Liz of rape. He's simply provided a platform to which users post screenshots of things already in the public domain, including things Liz has said on his own Twitter.

And no case was won by Liz against the farms.

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 10:20

TownGown · 09/02/2024 00:41

It is harassment, as ruled by a court.

Monitoring someone and keeping track of everything they do and throwing accusations around is called stalking (I would know, I've been a victim of it which resulted in a conviction for the perp).

If Mumsnet is going to permit hateful false accusations on its forum too against LGBT people maybe there needs to be another court case?

So first off, wasn't to do with LFJ. It was a direct response to accusations by the company Epik which is already admitting that they "made it up". (Their words from their Twitter account!) So your repeated attempts to bring up LFJ is a little weird. Secondly, I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that LFJ is a rapist. Some people have quoted LFJ's own Twitter feed where LFJ says there was a "consent accident". I.e. LFJ had sex with somebody and admits that it was without the other parties consent. Why you want to keep forcing people to bring that up I don't know but it's very similar to LFJ's own actions with KiwiFarms where LFJ's tweet would be an amusing/horrible footnote if LFJ hadn't then tried to use their position at Google to get KiwiFarms deplatformed and all the other attempts LFJ has made so far. The outcome is in both cases the exact opposite of what we presume you want which is for people to not be aware of this or the involvement with the charity funds misappropriation (as determined by a court! ;) ).

At any rate, despite this you keep following this simple strategy of entering the thread and trying to turn it into a pro-/anti- LFJ discussion when this is so very much bigger than that. It makes me half-wonder if that meme above is true and you really were LFJ in a Scooby Doo mask. Nonetheless, lets take apart a couple of your statements simply because it's so easy to do:

>It is harassment, as ruled by a court.

KiwiFarms has never been found guilty of criminal action. Jersh is pretty scrupulous about legality and the Farms itself has a general policy of hands-off observation only. Rare exceptions where someone directly involves themself with the Farms.

In anticipation of you spamming that Guardian article a third time to try and suggest that your statement is true, I'll head that off. The judgement in that case (a) wasn't against the farms (b) was against some one-person company that owned a block of IP addresses that the Farms used (c) was for defamation, not harassment, (d) the guy who owned and ran the company never showed up in court apparently because he thought it would just get thrown out (stupid overconfidence on his part but no indictment of the Farms) resulting in a default judgement because no defence was mounted.

Anyone of those items alone refutes the notion that the court found KF was guilty of harassment. Indeed, the Australian court doesn't even have jurisdiction over KF an American site but that's neither here nor there due to all the previous reasons anyway.

I've actually read some of the court papers from that case, fwiw, and will share a couple of more egregious elements.

One of the incidents referenced in LFJ's claims was how a photograph was taken of a picnic they attended. It makes it sound like stalking. The picnic was a "protest picnic" that LFJ themself advertised time and location of and LFJ was annoyed because someone took a photo of LFJ sitting alone there with a box of doughnuts when the hoped for protestors didn't show up. It puts rather a different complexion on a photograph being taken when it's a "picnic" vs. "a self-advertised protest that you've invited people to", does it not? This other line from the judgement also tickles me: "It is well accepted that injury to feelings may constitute a significant part of the harm sustained by a plaintiff, and for which a plaintiff is to be compensated by damages". I.e. the court will order payment for your hurt feelings. That's hilarious and awful and had the defendent shown up I doubt much of the case would have stood up. Shame he didn't. Other parts of the judgement establish that LFJ "had a good reputation". Well that's an interesting logic to take that if you discount the negative things said about someone they have a good reputation and therefore the negative things are damaging and actionable - even when they're merely archiving of the claimant's own public tweets.

In any case, the court case doesn't show that KiwiFarms was found guilty of harassment by court as you have stated is the case. So if not this, it's on you to point to some other court case I'm not aware of that does show it.

As to your other two statements:

>>Monitoring someone and keeping track of everything they do and throwing accusations around is called stalking (I would know, I've been a victim of it which resulted in a conviction for the perp).

Recording someone's public statements on their Twitter feed, linking to their own public appearances or a photo by somebody of a despondent LFJ waiting in vain for anyone to show up to their self-advertised time and place may result in "hurt feelings" as the court document ruled but is a pretty darn low-bar for harassment and that's the best you've got. Maybe just drop the LFJ obsession because you're doing more harm to LFJ's reputation by trying to use this derailment tactic than if you just let it drop.

>>If Mumsnet is going to permit hateful false accusations on its forum too against LGBT people maybe there needs to be another court case?

Be specific - who are you talking about and where? Reporting that someone has been accused of being a rapist is not the same as making an actionable accusation yourself. The person who accused LFJ of rape was someone who knew LFJ personally and had a sexual encounter with them acknowledged by LFJ. Not someone on this forum that I know of. Nor is quoting LFJ's own words about the accusation that there had been "a consent accident" someone making a false accusation. Nor, just making a logical observation here, is any body on this forum in a position to state that the accusation from the woman who said LFJ did rape her is false. We simply don't know. We can only know that LFJ themself acknowledged that it wasn't consensual.

Maybe we can return to discussing the legal fund now? It's over USD153,000 now.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2024 12:03

Oh its Marge. I grew quite fond of Marge, albeit in the way I used to be quite fond of my tantruming toddler. You had to admire their determination and persistence against all evidence and rationality.

Just made the link with K-J and Google. The farms are now back on Google. Thier fundraiser came up on the first page, so I don't think they are even deboosted. Perhaps recent court cases illustrating organisational capture, which then leads to poor, perhaps illegal behaviour, has been noted. Google has looked into their position and realised that complaints from one or two individuals are like that butterfly in the Amazon. A couple of flaps of the wing became amplified over a large distance to the hurricane of KF are evil.

TownGown · 09/02/2024 13:13

namitynamechange · 09/02/2024 09:39

I hadn't heard of LFJ let alone the alleged accusations against them (I say alleged accusations because I haven't seen any proof that accusations were made. Just TownGowns's assertions). But TownGown keeps going on and on about it, and asking people to post proof. Are you not worried about being sued for defamation yourself Towngown? Because you seem really eager to link LFJ's name to quite terrible crimes.

Edited

She is accused daily of being a "rapist" almost daily on kiwifarms. No evidence is ever given.

I have also seem Mumsnet users directly accuse them or heavily make the implication.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 09/02/2024 13:14

Screenshots of your mumsnet claims, Pls.

SoundTheSirens · 09/02/2024 13:32

Someone must be spending a lot of time on KF in order to know that anything is posted "daily"...

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 14:33

TownGown · 09/02/2024 13:13

She is accused daily of being a "rapist" almost daily on kiwifarms. No evidence is ever given.

I have also seem Mumsnet users directly accuse them or heavily make the implication.

> "She is accused daily of being a "rapist" almost daily on kiwifarms. No evidence is ever given."

I think that's just because LFJ admitted on Twitter to having sex with someone without that person's consent. Some KF users have concluded this is the same thing as rape.

Anyway, you have a peculiar obsession with LFJ and you frequently make incorrect statements such as KF having been determined in court to be guilty of harassment. Given you just blow past all the corrections people make I don't consider you to be arguing in good faith. This is a good example of why forums have a voting system. Without it, people feel obliged to reply to the same stuff over and over to prevent someone propagating false information through sheer repetition until the other party gets tired of replying. With a voting system it's easy to just signal disagreement and move on. It's a nice feature of the Farms over MN, I'm afraid to say. Maybe MN would consider it.

TownGown · 09/02/2024 14:47

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 14:33

> "She is accused daily of being a "rapist" almost daily on kiwifarms. No evidence is ever given."

I think that's just because LFJ admitted on Twitter to having sex with someone without that person's consent. Some KF users have concluded this is the same thing as rape.

Anyway, you have a peculiar obsession with LFJ and you frequently make incorrect statements such as KF having been determined in court to be guilty of harassment. Given you just blow past all the corrections people make I don't consider you to be arguing in good faith. This is a good example of why forums have a voting system. Without it, people feel obliged to reply to the same stuff over and over to prevent someone propagating false information through sheer repetition until the other party gets tired of replying. With a voting system it's easy to just signal disagreement and move on. It's a nice feature of the Farms over MN, I'm afraid to say. Maybe MN would consider it.

I asked if anyone here believes they have "evidence" of a rape taking place if they have passed it onto police. Noone replied. People keep saying or implying they have "evidence" but are unwilling to product it when asked.

You are wrong, I posted a link saying a provider hosting KF had been sued. This was regarding false and defamatory content being posted on KF.

"Someone must be spending a lotof time on KF in order to know that anything is posted "daily"..."

All it takes is one look actually. There are a few specific trans people on there the users are very obsessed about.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 09/02/2024 14:51

The evidence of a ‘consent accident’ is LFJ’s very own Twitter post admitting to a ‘consent accident’.

is all non-consensual sex rape? many people believe it is.

The legal definition of rape depends on the jurisdiction. Maybe someone should ask LFJ where the consent accident occurred and get back to us?

kittensinthekitchen · 09/02/2024 15:07

Why would LFJ be concerned about an allegation of rape? Surely it's well established that 'women' cannot commit rape? Wink

Anyway, Marge, you've been so distracted by LFJ you forgot to let everyone know that your pal Keffals has been named as an involved party in the suicide note of a trans person? So is that Keffals killcount: 1?

nothingcomestonothing · 09/02/2024 15:09

I asked if anyone here believes they have "evidence" of a rape taking place if they have passed it onto police. Noone replied. People keep saying or implying they have "evidence" but are unwilling to product it when asked.

Do you have evidence of the harassment and hate speech you have confidently asserted exist? Or are you not subject to the same standards you wish to impose on others?

nothingcomestonothing · 09/02/2024 15:11

NicCageisnotNickCave · 09/02/2024 14:51

The evidence of a ‘consent accident’ is LFJ’s very own Twitter post admitting to a ‘consent accident’.

is all non-consensual sex rape? many people believe it is.

The legal definition of rape depends on the jurisdiction. Maybe someone should ask LFJ where the consent accident occurred and get back to us?

According to FJs own tweets, the 'consent accident' occurred in Zurich.

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 15:16

TownGown · 09/02/2024 14:47

I asked if anyone here believes they have "evidence" of a rape taking place if they have passed it onto police. Noone replied. People keep saying or implying they have "evidence" but are unwilling to product it when asked.

You are wrong, I posted a link saying a provider hosting KF had been sued. This was regarding false and defamatory content being posted on KF.

"Someone must be spending a lotof time on KF in order to know that anything is posted "daily"..."

All it takes is one look actually. There are a few specific trans people on there the users are very obsessed about.

> "I asked if anyone here believes they have "evidence" of a rape taking place if they have passed it onto police. Noone replied. People keep saying or implying they have "evidence" but are unwilling to product it when asked."

Because you're setting up some weird strawman that is not addressed to anyone in particular. WHO in this thread has said they have evidence - ask that person. The accusation of rape came from someone LFJ knew and had sex with and described the sex as resulting from a "consent accident". Go ask them instead of clogging up this thread as it wasn't anyone in this thread.

>> "You are wrong, I posted a link saying a provider hosting KF had been sued. This was regarding false and defamatory content being posted on KF."

I am not wrong. You said, and I quote verbatim: "It is harassment, as ruled by a court." No court has ruled that KF is guilty of harassment. You are factually wrong and a long list of reasons was given why. But you don't address them, you don't even acknowledge they were there. You just blow past and repeat the same assertions as before.

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 15:25

nothingcomestonothing · 09/02/2024 15:09

I asked if anyone here believes they have "evidence" of a rape taking place if they have passed it onto police. Noone replied. People keep saying or implying they have "evidence" but are unwilling to product it when asked.

Do you have evidence of the harassment and hate speech you have confidently asserted exist? Or are you not subject to the same standards you wish to impose on others?

"Hate speech" is a wibbly term I'm wary of. There's lots of speech on KF that would probably qualify as hate speech under UK law. Hell, saying a man is a man probably qualifies in the UK if that man disagrees. But what the Farms doesn't do is actively harass people. It documents, debates and laughs. It falls under US laws where free speech is protected and that includes views that some people don't like. It's why despite there being a tonne of views on there that most MNers would disagree with, MN still finds it useful because the Farms allows all views.

Some people fear laughter more than they do hate. Some people would prefer it if the Farms DID harass them because then they could claim to be a victim, they could go to the law. But a site that simply holds up your own words and actions to you and finds it funny - what can they do? Nobody has ever successfully sued KF because you can't sue someone for saying you said something when you said it, or saying you did something when you have.

The KF is more like that Stephen King novel IT where the children defeat the monster by laughing at it and not taking it seriously. Only, you know, without the uncomfortable underage sex orgy that Stephen King included.

DevilinaCardigan · 09/02/2024 15:53

i think I’m in love with you @Fruityful I’d give all of your posts 🏆🏆🏆

Fruityful · 09/02/2024 16:00

DevilinaCardigan · 09/02/2024 15:53

i think I’m in love with you @Fruityful I’d give all of your posts 🏆🏆🏆

Daawwwww.

pickledandpuzzled · 09/02/2024 16:11

LFJ sounds like a right nasty piece of work. Thanks, @TownGown for bring him to my attention. Grim.

Thank you @Fruityful , for your diligence. It’s made interesting reading.

MacPoot · 09/02/2024 18:01

DevilinaCardigan · 09/02/2024 15:53

i think I’m in love with you @Fruityful I’d give all of your posts 🏆🏆🏆

Absolutely 👏👏👏👏 I agree.

MP/TG doesn't answer anything you ask, it's absurd.

Several of us have said that Josh/KF have never accused FJ of rape, they only post and discuss FJs own content.

MP/TG responds by asking please provide proof of rape.

Absolutely dafty.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2024 18:05

Does Josh object to being compared to Suzie Quatro’s fat nan? Now he has a legal fund perhaps he could sue?

TownGown · 09/02/2024 18:13

"Hell, saying a man is a man probably qualifies in the UK if that man disagrees. "

This is something I hear a lot from people who identify as gender critical- particularly those who have been fired/charged by police/banned from somewhere online etc etc. They often claim "it was because they mis-gendered a trans person".

Noone, absolutely noone, has ever been arrested/charged or fired in the UK for mis-gendering a trans person. It has never happened. Generally when someone is fired/charged and this claim is made there often turns out to be allegations of harassment/stalking/other involved.

I highly doubt anyone has been banned from an online forum or platform either just for mis-gendering, unless it's done frequently in bad faith.

"Several of us have said that Josh/KF have never accused FJ of rape, they only post and discuss FJs own content."

I don't know about Josh personally but many on his forum (kiwifarms) have directly called mentioned trans woman a "rapist". No evidence has ever been provided.

I did notice Josh said on his update page Caroline Farrow was arrested and had her computer equipment seized "just for saying a trans woman was a man". uh huh sure buddy.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 09/02/2024 18:27

When was a Gender Critical person FIRED for being abusive?

All the GC firing cases have turned out to be unfair dismissals! I realise it takes ages for the tribunal process fo unfold but c’mon, Marge, do keep up!

Not only are GC beliefs WORIAD but we are expressly permitted to express them in the workplace - hopefully HR departments will keep up with the law because all this GC winning in the courts system is getting quite repetitive.

Caroline’s computer was seized for no good reason at all, hence the spurious transphobia accusations being dropped.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2024 18:39

Is Marge also Felix? The supposed cop with a Caroline Farrow obsession.

Are they all bots? (I recently spent hours chatting to a British Gas chat bot. Same repetition and lack of critical thinking or ability to cope with anything beyond the script.)

NicCageisnotNickCave · 09/02/2024 18:49

Naw, I think Felix must be just Marge’s transatlantic brother from another mother (or nonbinary AMAB sibling from another gender unspecified birthing parent?) because Felix likes to quote the police handbook (out of context) and Marge doesn’t seem capable of understanding that generic blue state laws have fuck all jurisdiction over us pesky Brit-Terves (look at the mess the US EDI advisors made for Maya’s ex employer as an amusing illustration).

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