Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

+NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom* · Today 16:22
The GRA makes it clear that the birth certificates of children are not the affected by a parent’s change of legal sex.

And the judge in the FM case said something along the lines of ‘mother’ refers to ‘person who gestated baby’ which could be a woman or a transman, even if that even if that transman had a legal sex of ‘male’.

Thank you for answering. I had been wondering if the F M judgement meant that, de facto, sex is biological, and therefore the Haldane judgement contradicted this one.

At this point I just feel mentally dizzy.

I am glad children are protected from the lie that their mother was a man though.

It makes me dizzy too! The GRA was an utterly bonkers bit of law making.

here’s the Guardian report on the decision in the F McC judicial review:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/25/transgender-man-loses-court-battle-to-be-registered-as-father-freddy-mcconnell

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · Today 02:24
It makes me dizzy too! The GRA was an utterly bonkers bit of law making.

here’s the Guardian report on the decision in the F McC judicial review:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/25/transgender-man-loses-court-battle-to-be-registered-as-father-freddy-mcconnell

Thank you, NicolaSturgeons
Re the judge’s comment:

“It is now medically and legally possible for an individual, whose gender is recognised in law as male, to become pregnant and give birth to their child. Whilst that person’s gender is ‘male’, their parental status, which derives from their biological role in giving birth, is that of ‘mother’.”

To me,
’biological role’ = ‘mother’
means
’biological role’ = ‘sex’ [of the type with female gametes]

So sex in the EA (as there is no legal fiction entailed) would surely be biological.

Here in this judgement the judge is showing that sex trumps gender.

So shouldn’t Lady Haldane be wrong?

On a separate point,

This sentence by the judge is misleading (my bold):
“It is now medically and legally possible for an individual, whose gender is recognised in law as male, to become pregnant and give birth to their child.”

“It is now medically ..possible” suggests there has been an innovation in medicine making this possible.

No, there has not been any advance in medicine to make this possible.

This pregnancy and birth is only possible because the pregnant female human animal, with the legal gender of human ‘male’, is in fact still biologically a human female just as they always were.

Wish these bloody parents would put their baby first. They deserve not to be lied to on their own birth certificate and more than that they deserve not to be exposed to hormone injections in the womb.

I’d also say being born into a family situation like that seems like a recipe for future therapy but that could be said for a lot of things, so I’ll save my ire for health concerns and legal fictions.

Pesky science, finding provable sex (not gender, thank you, New Scientist) differences again:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2381196-men-and-womens-hands-can-be-distinguished-just-from-their-scent/?

Paywalled, but you can get the key point from the preview.

I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of difference in how men and women smell.

Are the differences as clear if someone is taking cross sex hormones I wonder?

I think it's reasonably likely there would be some difference - things you put into your body tend to come out somehow. It would be interesting to know how much.

Feeling a bit miz as I've got my second dental infection in a month, so been cheering myself up by re-reading some of the KJK cheese pun thread. It was good (Gouda!) wasn't it.

I used to live in Trowbridge. Not very often anything exciting happens there.

Sympathies @Tricyrtis2022 - hope it all feels better soon. You really went through the mill with that extraction.

That's for sure, @Britinme it was grim. Feeling a bit better today, thank you!

Reading through the cheesiness really cheered me up, it was so silly.

A little light entertainment if you've got a couple of minutes. CyclingSam has updated the lyrics to the Kenny Rogers classic the Gambler. See the subtitles as the video plays!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4854139-the-bluffer-parody-of-the-gambler?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66299441

So, Quinn is a natal male, yes? The BBC piece does everything except say so. I wondered about ;their' team-mates. But maybe in modern Canada there's no place on the team for troublesome terfs.

I read that as Quinn being a natal female because of the comment about taking testosterone.

There's an amusing survey on MN from somewhere called Purdue University - well, I found the first page of questions amusing, anyway:

Research Study on Female Feminist Perspectives http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveysstudentssnonprofitssandstartt_ups/4857030-research-study-on-female-feminist-perspectives

I don't think I'll be responding

No, Quinn is female.

@Britinme Maybe, I really don't know.

Quinn has always played for women's teams. And a male would be talking about decreasing (or not) testosterone; not about 'not planning to increase it' to remain eligible for the women's game.

It's a non-story, really. Woman footballer changes name, continues playing women's football.

Still looks like a woman.

So it seems. OK, thanks.

About time!

https://twitter.com/NZNEssentials/status/1683945224056213506?s=19

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/395G3MF

an interesting looking Mumsnet survey that seems to be about creating a filter for topics in AIBU (I only had a brief look).

Good. And good article.

I just wish that politicians and the media would stop the spin that all LGBT+Whatever people are threatened and outraged and against free speech/women having rights/homosexuality being permitted. Some of us are really vehemently NOT.

These thugs do not speak for the entire group and community however much they like to pretend that they do in order to manipulate political and public support. When this is enabled, LGBT+ becomes nothing more than a name for a political extremist and repressive group that has only in common their wish to severely curtail other people's rights in their own favour. They have kicked out all the LGBT+ people who said 'hang on a minute, that's an awful way to treat people'. And they have ended it being a diverse group of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people who just had their homosexuality in common.