Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

OK. I was thinking about female biology which here means (to use Lemony Snicket's terminology) ovulation, periods, pregnancy, birth, and breastfeeding. While not all female people do these things, only female people can do them. That said, I wonder if we have been hoist with our own 'be kind' petard. If you have easy periods (I wish), shush because some women have it harder, if you are able to conceive, shush because some women can't, if your pregnancy is straightforward, shush some women have it harder, if you give birth in the way in which you'd like so you consider it successful, shush some women couldn't, if breastfeeding went well, shush some women can't do it. It's as though a woman's body doing the things a woman's body can do should never ever be acknowledged lest it make someone feel bad. And I wonder if there's a connection there to the disconnection with the female body which allows males to muscle in.

It's not a fully formed thought so I would appreciate if anyone can see what I am trying to get at and, of course, pull it apart too.

My word:

Ginny - an update www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4845145-ginny-an-update

There's a thread on AIBU that I'm frankly astonished hasn't been shunted over here.

It has been now, the monitors obviously whinged sufficiently to get it moved onto the naughty step.

@ISaySteadyOn - that resonates with me.

Does it? I am glad. Can you explain what resonates? I just started thinking about it today and am curious about other thoughts.

I didn't come across the original Ginny thread so this was a whole new thing and a whole insane new thing at that. That poor woman, her poor colleagues, that entitled piece of shit and he is totally all about the AGP. I can't imagine how awful their workplace is right now.

What @MouseMinge said. It made me recall the one time I did work alongside a transwoman, but it was way back, would have been early 80's I suppose. She (never thought to say otherwise), was a 6 ft tall biker, but actually did 'pass' and I quite liked her, and used we to chat, and I remember I managed to persuade her to let me have a go on her motorbikes in the lunch-hour. And the one woman in the dept who used to moan (a bit, not loudly) about her was generally thought to be a bit unkind and intolerant. But talking about the mood of the times. And certainly, the person in question never bragged about any real or imagined sex-life, just seemed to want to make a normal life for herself. Course, it seemed like a one-off, to some extent, back then, not an epidemic.

@ISaySteadyOn - it's the thing about how neatly it all slots in to the way we're all socialized as women to be kind and gentle about others' feelings and taught to consider others' feelings above our own.

@ISaySteadyOn That's been a bit of a penny drop moment for me! IMO you've made a good point there.

@MmePoppySeedDefage I didn't see the original Ginny thread, so have just read all the way through this update thread with my jaw on the floor.

Thanks, I am glad you understood what I was getting at.

@ISaySteadyOn it rings bells with me too, and I'd also link it to the factors that lead to "silent" women's health issues taking so long to diagnose.

We are conditioned to accept pain and inconvenience as part of menarche, menstruation and menopause, to a point where it's all too easy for the symptoms of uterine or ovarian cancer, or endometriosis, to be doubly dismissed - first by ourselves and then by medics.

How much could be connected to internalised Old Testament ideas of women being inherently sinful and deserving pain? Which would also explain a bit around the taboo of saying if you don't have pain, almost as if the woman without pain is getting away with it somehow.

Another excellent point@ISaySteadyOn !

Thank you. I am trying to iron out my thoughts and this is a great thread to do it on. Thank youv@Kucinghitam for starting these threads in the first place.

Someone's started a thread on AIBU on the nipple clamp geezer from the TUC. Riley Gaines has done a thing on it. Incoming in 3...2...

@ISaySteadyOn women are amazing, we should shout it from the rooftops! That men think they can get anywhere close to emulating us is laughable.

There's another thread (sick of all the trans hate*), was in AIBU now in Site Stuff. Perhaps deleting threads or shifting them here was getting a bit embarrassing. Is Site Stuff the nonbinary option?

*no examples forthcoming

As someone else said, Another excellent point @ISaySteadyOn !

I hadn’t seen the original thread either but it is jaw-dropping. And how silly of the employer to let himself be played like that, and to ignore the feelings of his other employees.

Just got to the point where the OP reveals they have a daughter with a breast binder. And suddenly their anger and denials make sense!

Help please - I am having a discussion on another forum (yes, Virginia, there are other forums... fora... whatever) in which my (male) interlocutor says "Can you say with absolute certainty that the police ignored complaints because of being stonewalled? If there's any evidence this is the case, there are an incredible number of very litigious groups out there who would gladly sue the Police if this is the case." Does anybody have examples I can cite?

Proving a direct link in an individual case would be tricky, I think. They are hardly going to say 'As Stonewall signatories ...' . It's more about a suggestive pattern of which complaints they take up with enthusiasm and which they ignore. And some decidedly biased tweeting.

This letter in the Guardian. Is this true? It would explain so much. As the author wrote my esteem of the medical profession, while still high, has been downgraded

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/10/anatomy-is-a-vital-part-of-the-medical-curriculum

@Britinme you are being asked for a standard of evidence which itself would be prosecutable or close.

Not going to happen until the edifice falls completely. What can be demonstrated is the reluctance of the met to prosecute incitement to violence wherever women protest, and the absence of prosecution. The torturer last week at Pride is a good example. And the prosecution for hate crimes, the visits from stonewall-captured police departments, the loss of jobs etc.

How is this not linked to stonewall's pervasive influence? That's why they exist, now their founding objectives are achieved.

"Absolute certainty" does not exist. He's blagged you into a corner. Am I wrong in seeing this as a peculiarly male tactic in discussion? You can't provide this pristine standard of evidence so all your arguments are girly shite?

@IcakethereforeIam a good question. I've asked some senior colleagues in medical education that I trust, see what they think. Will report back.

FWIW, my own view, as one who until recently worked in a specific area of medical education, is that there's not enough time anyway. :(

@Britinme , a comparison of the recent treatment of Caroline Farrow and Sarah Jane Baker in the UK would be helpful, though as others say it's not evidential proof.

Broadly, CF has been repeatedly summoned to police interviews (not sure if arrested) for hate crimes (=tweeting facts). The Met Police, on the other hand, initially refused to follow up when SJB, a transwomen life prisoner out on licence, said publicly at Trans Peide last weekend, "If you see a TERF, punch her in the face", to cheers from the assembled crowd.

I'd love to see an explanation of this difference that managed not to involve Stonewall capture.

Doesn’t warrant it’s own thread but Claire Coutinho, minister for children, well-being and families, spoke on free speech in higher education last week and Kathleen Stock gets a mention

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/minister-coutinhos-speech-to-policy-exchange-on-free-speech