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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nancy Kelly wants us to support this man's fight to play rugby with women.

298 replies

DerekFaker · 16/05/2023 11:03

Mask off. And replies off as well.

"If you can, support @tigergirl_70 in her fight for an inclusive rugby game #MakeSportEveronesGame"

https://twitter.com/Nancy_M_K/status/1657427311036170242?t=Kt2hAR8OUgKDmG-twWbz5Q&s=19

Nancy Kelly wants us to support this man's fight to play rugby with women.
OP posts:
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GailBlancheViola · 20/05/2023 13:34

Don't forget the frilly knickers @SockGoddess and absolute must, I bet baby doll nighties are essential for the pillow fights too.

miri1985 · 21/05/2023 09:52

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

FannyCann · 21/05/2023 11:24

The mail appears to have missed the fact that the crowdfunder is no longer there. Or at least the link in Nancy's tweet no longer works.
Has it been withdrawn?

WarningToTheCurious · 21/05/2023 12:50

Looks like it has gone. Wonder what will happen to the funds?

Chersfrozenface · 21/05/2023 12:53

WarningToTheCurious · 21/05/2023 12:50

Looks like it has gone. Wonder what will happen to the funds?

I believe a poster of this parish is keeping an eye on her* bank account to see whether the sum pledged is taken.

*I am basing the pronoun on the user name. Apols if incorrect.

NecessaryScene · 21/05/2023 12:58

Crowdjustice doesn't take any money unless the first funding target is met, which this was a long way from.

Abhannmor · 21/05/2023 13:26

Oh Nancy....

Nancy Kelly wants us to support this man's fight to play rugby with women.
rhywlodes · 21/05/2023 13:31

Chersfrozenface · 21/05/2023 12:53

I believe a poster of this parish is keeping an eye on her* bank account to see whether the sum pledged is taken.

*I am basing the pronoun on the user name. Apols if incorrect.

If you meant me, nope, no money gone out (and Neccessary scene has just pointed out that money isn't taken unless funding target is met; thanks for that info).

Yes, I am a lodes 😊

WarningToTheCurious · 21/05/2023 13:52

I couldn’t remember whether the initial target had been met and it was a stretch target that was still a way off.

ChateauMargaux · 21/05/2023 14:55

If this does go to court - I hope they review https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf guidelines

The new guidelines issued in September 2021 state among other things, that competitive fairness is incompatible with self identification into the female category, that exclusion on the basis of sex at birth is lawful under the equality act of 2010 and based on current evidence, testosterone suppression is unlikely to guarantee fairness between transgender women and natal females and a case by case basis is unlikely to result in fairness.

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

PuttingDownRoots · 21/05/2023 18:13

According to a news site that likes pink, they raised "thousands" of pounds. And the ban is unscientific.

PorcelinaV · 21/05/2023 19:09

PuttingDownRoots · 21/05/2023 18:13

According to a news site that likes pink, they raised "thousands" of pounds. And the ban is unscientific.

They apparently argue that the science is "unclear". Even if that were correct, it's perfectly reasonable to have a ban until such time as you have clear evidence. Especially in a contact sport when you should be extra cautious about it.

Note that he is still allowed to participate in the women's "touch rugby".

nepeta · 21/05/2023 19:47

I have never played rugby, but based on viewing it played in the Olympics and elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that men who are 52 would be active players in a league for all ages of men? So if this player was an active player in a women's league for much younger players, that, alone, suggests that there is an average sex difference in some relevant biological measure.

gymorgin · 22/05/2023 06:59

nepeta · 21/05/2023 19:47

I have never played rugby, but based on viewing it played in the Olympics and elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that men who are 52 would be active players in a league for all ages of men? So if this player was an active player in a women's league for much younger players, that, alone, suggests that there is an average sex difference in some relevant biological measure.

This is a great point that hadn't occurred to me before.

Would it be a discipline matter or discrimination for me to highlight points like this in the workplace?

Helleofabore · 22/05/2023 08:17

nepeta · 21/05/2023 19:47

I have never played rugby, but based on viewing it played in the Olympics and elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that men who are 52 would be active players in a league for all ages of men? So if this player was an active player in a women's league for much younger players, that, alone, suggests that there is an average sex difference in some relevant biological measure.

There is a male rugby player in Australia who is very very vocal about this. That player is mid 50s and like ‘tiger’, plays with much younger women. In Australia, that player is an ex champion aquatic sports champion so has a history of being peak fitness.

Strangely, when people point out that this player is by far the eldest playing, that no other teams have even perimenopause aged women playing, they block people and used to attempt to get them banned from Twitter. It seems the glaring truth to their constant advocacy of denying any advantage is hateful.

That player is also known to harass Dr Hilton and is well known for their misogyny. They were, or perhaps still are, a prison warden.

But the age argument has been pointed out many times. From Hubbard, to ‘tiger’. It never once occurs to these ideological driven supporters of the ‘no advantage’ lie that their ability to compete in this way with decades younger women and the rarity of any women their age still competing is a glaringly obvious advantage.

ChateauMargaux · 22/05/2023 09:57

According to an 18 month review by Equality in Sport which is made up of representatives from Sport England, Sport Scotland, Sport Wales:

'....
Many sports will favour faster, bigger, stronger people in a physically competitive event. The Equality Act recognises this through the ‘gender-affected’ nature of many sports, and this can be further understood through an analysis of the physical and performance differences between the sexes.

Adult male athletes have on average a 10-12% performance advantage over female competitors in swimming and running events, around 20% advantage in jumping events, and 35% greater performance in strength-based sports (e.g. weightlifting) for similar-sized athletes. When average-sized males are compared with average-sized females, the difference is such that the males are half as strong again as females.

According to data from the NHS, 50% of males are taller than more than 95% of females, with longer, straighter limbs, and bigger hands and feet. Males have greater muscle mass (concentrated in the upper body), bigger hearts and lungs, and greater stamina through higher hemoglobin (oxygen carrying capacity) than females.

The difference in performance, even at the lower range of 10-12%, is not small in terms of competitive outcomes; and would result in Adam Peaty being beaten by half the pool length in a short-course 100m breaststroke competition, Dina Asher Smith by more than 20m in the 200m track sprint, and Sir Mo Farah being lapped twice in the 10,000m track race.

The reality that males and females do not often play competitive sport against each other makes it difficult to appreciate the difference in physical capacity in most cases, particularly in team sports. However, an understanding of the gap between the two sexes can be recognised by results of practice matches between national senior women’s football teams against under-age boys’ teams in recent years: the national teams from Australia, USA and Brazil were beaten comprehensively (7-0, 5-2, 6-0 respectively) by club teams of 14 and 15-year-old boys.

Research on children indicate that there is a significant difference in strength, stamina, and physique at all ages, and this has been recorded from six years until maturation in comprehensive data sets. While the difference between the sexes increases after puberty, there is a brief period around the age of 10-11 in which females attain parity in height due to their naturally occurring earlier onset of the growth spurt of maturation.

Current scientific evidence indicates that the difference between the strength, stamina, and physique between the sexes is largely due to the higher testosterone levels of males during their lifetime. While this is not universally accepted, it is the basis for limitation of testosterone levels as required by the IOC for those transgender women wishing to compete at the Olympics. Such regulations have been adopted by most international governing bodies of sport, and by many NGBs in the UK.

The expectation has been that the suppression of hormone levels will create the guarantee of fairness as outlined by the IOC, as well as restitution of disadvantage within gender-affected sports as per the provisions in the Equality Act 2010 in relation to gender reassignment.

However, at this time, emerging evidence does not support the view that testosterone suppression for 12 months will achieve parity of strength, stamina and physique for transgender women compared with females; and hence cannot guarantee fairness. Rather, there appears to be a retention of physical capacity in transgender people who suppress testosterone from male levels. Research has only been collected for less than two decades and does not include longitudinal objective measurements of high-level transgender athletes. There is, however, considerable evidence which collectively demonstrates modest reduction in muscle mass and strength following testosterone suppression when compared with the average difference between the sexes, and this reduction may be further minimised with physical training. Testosterone suppression beyond 12 months may result in further strength reduction, but this does not reach parity with female levels up to the three years of current study length. Physique factors such as skeletal height, as well as lung size and bone density, also remain largely unchanged by testosterone suppression. However, stamina is likely to be affected as haemoglobin levels (which impacts oxygen carrying capacity in blood) decrease to those of females within 12 months of therapy; but the evidence for comparative performance loss is equivocal.'

TLDR: The science is clear!!

WarningToTheCurious · 22/05/2023 10:44

TLDR: The science is clear!!

I do hope that the UCI take note.

ChateauMargaux · 23/05/2023 06:27

@requeststats look at the Equality in Sports quotes I have shared on here..

Helleofabore · 23/05/2023 07:01

nepeta · 21/05/2023 19:47

I have never played rugby, but based on viewing it played in the Olympics and elsewhere, I find it hard to believe that men who are 52 would be active players in a league for all ages of men? So if this player was an active player in a women's league for much younger players, that, alone, suggests that there is an average sex difference in some relevant biological measure.

Here is another older male winning in female sports.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11892441/Transgender-athlete-46-wins-female-NYC-cycling-event-says-feels-like-superhero.html

Tiffany Thomas, 46, who was born male, ended the Randall's Island Crit cycling race atop the podium, blowing the competition out of the water to snatch first place.

Despite only taking up cycling in 2018, Tiffany quickly found success and has dominated competitions in the years since.

She recently landed a place on top cycling team LA Sweat, where her oldest teammate is just 32.
But her frequent victories have caught the ire of some critics, and fellow athletes, who to question whether Thomas holds an unfair advantage in women's sports.

So just like Killips this male also took up cycling relatively recently. Killips started 2019, this one 2018. And they both immediately started winning.

Against women.

And Thomas is 46.

Transgender athlete, 46, wins top female NYC cycling event

Transgender athlete Tiffany Thomas, 46, dominated the field at a women's cycling competition in New York City over the weekend, despite claims she holds an unfair advantage.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11892441/Transgender-athlete-46-wins-female-NYC-cycling-event-says-feels-like-superhero.html

BezMills · 23/05/2023 09:23

Men of all different gender identities, and indeed no gender identity, should be welcome and celebrated in sport. Male sport.
Football and rugby have historical baggage from decades of homophobia and this is an issue that men need to address. Nobody aged 52 should be effectively asking his mum if he can play with the girls because the boys are mean about how he likes to dress.
Pull on your big boy frilly pants, and get out on the pitch with the other men.
Stay safe big man.

rabbitwoman · 23/05/2023 20:31

I should imagine that it is difficult to find many trans identified men to study and get reliable data on in sport, but there is, surely, a massive cohort of men suppressing their testosterone that would give a very clear indication that it does not bring their physical strength down to the level of women, even if it is notably reduced?

Like thousands of men, my dad spent the last 15 years of his life using 'puberty blockers' and cross sex hormones to suppress his testosterone to treat prostate cancer. Yes, his body changed, but he was still definitely a man and right up until close to the very end, still much stronger than my mum or even me. I will ever forget, at the age of 70, when he came to help me and my husband dispose of our washing machine - he got fed up waiting for my husband to get dressed, just bent his knees, got our washing machine in a massive bear hug and carried it to the car by himself.

Even better, we hadn't even drained it!!

That's one anecdote, and does not a sturdy hypothesis make, but anyone with real appetite to get to the truth could surely do some study there, couldn't they?

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