How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

To be an ally you do not have to understand. It is not a belief as you put it.

Just to be clear, you say you can be a trans ally and not transphobic even if you don't believe trans women are women? Have you checked with the trans community about the veracity of this?

Am I allowed to stand up for marginalised people if they are women and girls? People have been threatened with decapitation for that, punched, screamed at.

Seen what happened to Dee Snider. An ally. He strayed from the True Path with some of his words and got banned from Pride.

This Maoist shit doesn't believe in debate or discussion.

Couldn't agree more.

In American this is a growing medical area of revenue, hormones surgery and s lifetime of drugs.

If you watch Louie Thoroux series on Transgender children it's an industry,, children as young as 5 are bing medically transitioned. It's the saddest show I've ever seen.

Be under no illusion this is about money

People on the trans-ally side of the argument very much like to duck the question of Stefonknee Wolscht, who identifies as a six-year-old girl. (Btw, the spelling of that name can be broken down into 'Stef on Knee'. This is not a coincidence.)

I ask the allies on this thread to look at the picture below and tell us:

Do you believe that this person is a six-year-old girl?

Do you think this person should be welcomed into children's parties and children's clubs and treated like a six-year-old girl?

Regardless of age, do you accept this person as female? Should this person be allowed into single-sex spaces reserved for women and girls?

I'm interested to see how many people engage with these questions.

Expecting men to stay in male sports is not transphobia. You are not letting people live as they choose because you are impacting women's rights to do so. The decent argument is very superficial.

I had a colleague who in about 2018 started specifying her pronouns at the foot of her email signature "I specify my pronouns and this is why you should too" which contained a link to a webpage somewhere that said it was to make people who were transitioning feel better and accepted.

This stuff tends to spread as best practice and theres often a disseminator, I guess an activist you could say.

I'm routinely misgendered BC of my forrin name and I'm actively not bothered .ppl think I'm male on email, If anything it creates an air of mystery.

To be an ally you do not have to understand. It is not a belief as you put it. Religion is a belief.

I would agree with the first sentence. I can be an ally for the Muslim community (for example) by learning about the culture and supporting someone who is fasting during Ramadan. But I don't need to understand the ins and outs of a faith in Allah. Nor do I need to be "all in" with "allyship" - as an example, I don't believe it's right that women in some Muslim countries and communities are told to wear hijabs. In some countries this is law.

However, I fundamentally disagree with the second sentence.

It can only either be a fact or a belief that everyone has a gender identity. There is no alternative: fact or belief.

I do not have a gender identity. No, that doesn't make me non-binary or agender. It just means that I don't have a gender identity because I don't believe it's a "thing". I also don't have a religion because I don't believe that God is "a thing". However, just as I do with religion, I accept that there are others for whom this is an important part of their own identity. And, just as I do with religion, I accept that I may not be right: gender identity may exist in the same way that God exists. I am very comfortable knowing that I hold views that differ from other people's.

Well literal. I am still hoping we get to see some new compelling studies on males vs female sporting performance that was mention upthread.

I am wondering if it is the USAF study. The one where the male military personnel no longer had to maintain male fitness levels and only had to aim for the lower female target, but has been wrongly taken as being a valid indicator of those male people performing at their highest peak.

I am hoping though for something new that we have missed.

No you can't have the studies, I have no idea what they are. Why do you think I'm convinced? Read the op and my posts properly.

Perhaps then you can explain what you mean here then:

“Now competitive sports, this is a very tricky one IMO but I have seen various studies or medical information / Dr quotes etc that suggest in some cases there is no natural obvious inherent advantage for over sex over another etc. There are also examples of eg intersex sportspeople who've been categorised one way or another and subsequently had a tough time. Finally, there's also the argument it's harmful for trans people to be excluded from sports as it "others" then.”

Do you mean that you have seen “various studies or medical information / Dr quotes etc that suggest in some cases there is no natural obvious inherent advantage for over sex over another etc” but you, personally, don’t believe those studies?

What is your point here? That there ARE people who use flawed studies to push falsehoods that male bodies have no advantages? Because, yes. That is true.

But why is sports a ‘tricky’ one? Because people listen and are convinced by the falsehoods? Or because people who are thinking ideologically demand that their ideals take precedence over material reality.

‘To be an ally you do not have to understand. It is not a belief as you put it. Religion is a belief. ‘

Hmmm, that’s just as well. Because I just find it impossible to believe that a person with XX chromosomes is actually a man, even if they have surgically altered their body, and ingested synthetic hormones to dis regulate their system. They may have limited some of the female functions they initially had, but I just can’t see them as a man in the physical, emotional and psychological sense that DH is, for example. It’s not that I don’t want to, or think it would be wrong to , or that I delight in damaging their self perception, it’s just that at the most basic level of experience and perception I can’t.

It’s like gravity. Experience and perception inform me that when I let go of my cup it falls. I might like to believe that it will hover obligingly in the air until I catch, but I know it won’t.

I don’t really believe that any other adult believes it at the gravitational level, either, though I can conjecture the various motivations for giving lip service to it.

i suppose that’s why it’s so important to get them young, as the Jesuits knew. It is probably possible to remove the basic ‘gravitational’ perception in young children, that’s why we have to tell them not to jump out of the window because they have seen the Superman franchise.

By the way, ‘religion’ is not a’belief’. The belief is ‘faith’ , a spiritual virtue. ‘religion’ is the set of practices by which a faith is observed and regulated.

ok. So you don’t remember the studies that you have said you have seen that might be convincing people (if no you, then people you refer to) to believe that male athletes have no advantage over female athletes. Thanks anyway. I know a few are due out so I am always watchful for them.

Do not turn a blind eye to transphobia, just be kind.

I think, on a society wise level, women have done their turn being kind. It's men's go. They can be kind and women can suit ourselves.

Days of ordering women to be kind are over.

@Ilovetea42

I find the idea that anyone would pretend to be female to access women's bathrooms to place cameras for example to be a bit far fetched...

Have you read any news in the last 3 years or so? That's precisely what the paedophile "Katie" Dolatowski did, as well as the Wii Spa paedophile, who was banned from places with children.

There have been many, many stories linked on various threads on Mumsnet, detailing assaults and plain old creepy, intimidating behaviour by men, posing as women, in women's toilets and changing rooms.

Katie Dolatowski should be enough to make you say No

It seems to me, as has already been said here a number of times, that many people have got onboard with this because they think it's a good cause.

Why do they think that? It's because organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids have had a very good propaganda run, convincing Government departments, the Police etc that Trans Identifying Males are the most oppressed and marginalised group in society.

These people believe it, because it's in the Guardian, the Independent, Scientific American and the like. TIM also get highly sympathetic coverage on Eurovision and other televised programmes.

They see that right wing groups, people like Tommy Robinson and fundamentalist religious groups are any trans.

They then make the mental leap of assuming that women saying, "Male bodies in the toilets scare me, male bodies in sports basically can't lose; and here's reams of medical and scientific evidence to support that, putting rapists in prison with women is madness," are onside with Nazis and religious extremists.

They refuse to listen to the fact (I've seen it on MN and other fora) that most women have no objection to them leading their lives as they please, wearing stereotypical female clothes etc, but who explain very carefully why they want their legally protected spaces to remain free of males.

It's a highly reductive and ill informed position, which is completely and utterly wrong.

We live in times of "life hacks" and scrolling quickly past headlines that don't interest us, reading 140 character snippets and watching short videos. Things that are quick and easy are presented as desirable.

Adding pronouns to your email signature takes seconds. Rainbow lanyards are free, and rainbows are pretty. This is a quick and easy way to be Good and Nice and not think any more about it.

These women asking awkward questions about safeguarding, and banging on about nasty stuff like rapists and fetishes are bringing the mood down a bit. People don't want to have to think about Not Nice stuff.

That is so true and the transphobia trope solidifies that surface level belief that objections only come from people who want men to never wear make up, show emotion or work outside of a mine. Politicians modelling a refusal to engage in conversation and indeed thought, are also not helping. The adults are not always adulting.

Yes. They should be kind and not harass a TW using the spaces appropriately for their sex class. The lack of kindness is coming from men not women.

I think it's a somewhat warped extension of attempts at equality and fighting oppression. It is baffling but the thread throughout what I hear and see seems to be people wanting to be on the right side of history, and feeling that if they don't support it they are the modern day equivalent of homophobic? I disagree with that, they are wrong in my opinion. But I think (hope) it's often misplaced good intentions?

And yet you’re endorsing BiggerBoat’s call for us to be respectful and not imply our opponents are simple-minded.

It only goes one way, doesn’t it? We must bd kind to you and you can be rude to us.

@Tigofigo - Regarding the penis, one could argue that the penis does not maketh the man. A man could lose a penis in a terrible accident and still be a man. Ergo, if penis does not equal man, then penis does not NOT equal woman.

One could argue this but it would be a spectacular failure of logic. Try this:

Regarding wings, one could argue that wings do not maketh the bird. A bird could lose its wings in a terrible accident and still be a bird. Ergo, if wings do not equal bird, then wings do not NOT equal human.

But no human has wings. No human used to have wings. Humans don't have wings.

Similarly, no woman has a penis. No woman used to have a penis. Women do not have penises.

I think even 'relationship purposes' Robin made more sense!

My previous message was in answer to this. TRAs demand courtesy as a right, while routinely insulting women.

TRAs, can you really not see the irony?