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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

597 replies

IsThereAnEchoInHere · 11/05/2023 17:53

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

OP posts:
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26
IncompleteSenten · 12/05/2023 15:10

I think lockdown sent people bonkers.

OldCrone · 12/05/2023 15:26

literalviolence · 12/05/2023 14:34

Yes. They should be kind and not harass a TW using the spaces appropriately for their sex class. The lack of kindness is coming from men not women.

Is there any evidence that male transpeople are harassed in men's spaces? TRAs say that they are, but there are a few non-TRA male transpeople who post about using men's spaces with no problems at all.

CremeEggQueen · 12/05/2023 15:35

An all seeing" Trans High Command" is conspiracy theory territory though

literalviolence · 12/05/2023 16:07

OldCrone · 12/05/2023 15:26

Is there any evidence that male transpeople are harassed in men's spaces? TRAs say that they are, but there are a few non-TRA male transpeople who post about using men's spaces with no problems at all.

Good point but if there is any harassment, the issue is lack of men's kindness, not lack of women's.

whatisgoingonintheworld · 12/05/2023 16:50

@Tigofigo you have got to be kidding, you said: "Now competitive sports, this is a very tricky one IMO but I have seen various studies or medical information / Dr quotes etc that suggest in some cases there is no natural obvious inherent advantage for over sex over another etc."

Unbelievable. The really tall trans women competition against the female cyclists and you don't think there is an advantage! Well the female cyclists KNOW that the biological men, who identify as trans women have a definite advantage.

Sport is not tricky at all. Biological men compete against men. A separate category for all the men who now identify as trans women but not against biological women!

Booklover40 · 12/05/2023 16:54

Whatt · 11/05/2023 18:11

It started with threats of suicide and people gently being ask to just not take the piss when they saw a man dressed up as a women. It was still seen as a mental disorder though.

It then somehow got aligned with "coming out", and people finding their true self after being miserable all of their lives.

Then Bruce Jenner.

This.

Its boring just being gay nowadays - it’s far too common! I think a lot of trans people want to feel “special”. The ones who are genuine tend to just get on with dressing in the way that feels right for them but just get on with their lives and respect others boundaries.

Inamuddle36 · 12/05/2023 17:17

IsThereAnEcho — you are asking excellent and very fundamental questions.

Why might it be considered “cultural appropriation” for me to, for example, dress in Japanese kimono and perform tea ceremonies because I admire the culture so much I “feel” Japanese?

But it is ok for a man to dress “like a woman” and behave as he imagines a woman should? Is that not gender appropriation? Is Dylan Mulvaney acting as Dylan thinks a woman should act, not gender appropriation?

Another fundamental question is who should pay for any sort of transition? If a man “feels” like a woman and wishes to make himself look “like a woman”, should society pay for the transition? If the same person eventually feels “non-binary” or feels “like a man”, should society pay for the reverse transition? Would either of these transformations take priority over true medical needs?

my iwn view is that trans women are trans women; trans men are trans men — both worthy of human and civil rights as trans women and trans men as long as their rights don’t encroach on the rights of others.

StephanieSuperpowers · 12/05/2023 17:33

Well the female cyclists KNOW that the biological men, who identify as trans women have a definite advantage.

This is what really annoys me. The absolute bare faced, unashamed lies. They're not stupid enough to be unaware that they're lying. They know we know they're lying, but yet they persist with it. And call us names for not falling in line.

nepeta · 12/05/2023 17:57

My theory about how this all began is that most people saw it as Act II of the gay and Lesbian struggle for equal rights and never spent much energy on trying to think all the consequences through.

(It's actually quite complicated because of the way words are now being used whatever the speaker decides they mean, because the underlying theories contradict each other, and because most people don't realise that 'gender identity' does NOT mean just accepting the label 'woman' or 'man' for just being female or male, respectively, but full allegiance to the religion which believes in gendered souls floating in empty space and randomly attaching themselves to various bodies.)

So people wanted to be kind and 'on the right side of history' and to be seen as virtuous, and most who had any qualms told themselves that it's only a tiny percentage of people and won't affect anyone else's rights.

Three further things then pushed the development further:

One was funding and support from the moneyed top layers of societies. No other social justice movement has ever had so much money so fast! This access to plentiful funding meant a well-oiled machinery of activists which quickly gained influencer positions in organisations, when combined with the general desire to be 'kind'.

The second was the political acumen of the movement and the skills it has exploited:

Tying its goals to other social justice initiatives, such as same-sex marriage, to get them passed without public debates, working behind the curtain as much as possible, creating a set of easily remembered mantras disseminated everywhere, and exploiting data from, say, Brazil, to suggest that homicides of transgender people are more common than homicides on average in the UK, the US and Canada, say, when, in fact the opposite is true in all those countries.

When this is combined with the plentiful funding we get Stonewall indexes and other similar incentives for corporations not to dig too deep into anything.

The third aspect is, sadly, the fact that almost all negative consequences from the most fervent demands of trans activists only hurt the female sex class. The male sex class is mostly unaffected, and so men have the luxury of being seen as kind and virtuous without actually sacrificing anything.

I have learned, from this whole debacle, how a certain kind of widespread contempt towards women is what drives much of this:

For example, it is the pain of trans athletes which we are to prioritise, not the pain of the female athletes who lose their chances of winning places on the podium or money prizes for some competitions or athletic scholarship from inclusiveness, and it is also the case that inclusiveness demands have almost entirely been aimed at only the female sex while the male sex has, until very recently, been left alone. (No 'impregnating parents' suggested for fathers while mothers are in some places now called 'gestating parents.')

KalimbaMoon · 12/05/2023 18:15

IncompleteSenten · 12/05/2023 15:10

I think lockdown sent people bonkers.

People were pretty isolated and spent a heck of a lot of time online. I sometimes wonder how high the numbers of trans-identified or non-binary people would be today if social media had never existed. If people could only meet in the real world. No filters, no avatars, no TikTok or instagram. Of course there would still be trans people, but surely the numbers would be fewer than they are now?

So much of it feels tribal. A sense of belonging when you feel you don’t fit in with “normal” society. Like being a goth or an emo kid. Is it a coincidence that so many enbys look alternative, with tattoos and dyed blue / pink hair?

KalimbaMoon · 12/05/2023 18:20

nepeta · 12/05/2023 17:57

My theory about how this all began is that most people saw it as Act II of the gay and Lesbian struggle for equal rights and never spent much energy on trying to think all the consequences through.

(It's actually quite complicated because of the way words are now being used whatever the speaker decides they mean, because the underlying theories contradict each other, and because most people don't realise that 'gender identity' does NOT mean just accepting the label 'woman' or 'man' for just being female or male, respectively, but full allegiance to the religion which believes in gendered souls floating in empty space and randomly attaching themselves to various bodies.)

So people wanted to be kind and 'on the right side of history' and to be seen as virtuous, and most who had any qualms told themselves that it's only a tiny percentage of people and won't affect anyone else's rights.

Three further things then pushed the development further:

One was funding and support from the moneyed top layers of societies. No other social justice movement has ever had so much money so fast! This access to plentiful funding meant a well-oiled machinery of activists which quickly gained influencer positions in organisations, when combined with the general desire to be 'kind'.

The second was the political acumen of the movement and the skills it has exploited:

Tying its goals to other social justice initiatives, such as same-sex marriage, to get them passed without public debates, working behind the curtain as much as possible, creating a set of easily remembered mantras disseminated everywhere, and exploiting data from, say, Brazil, to suggest that homicides of transgender people are more common than homicides on average in the UK, the US and Canada, say, when, in fact the opposite is true in all those countries.

When this is combined with the plentiful funding we get Stonewall indexes and other similar incentives for corporations not to dig too deep into anything.

The third aspect is, sadly, the fact that almost all negative consequences from the most fervent demands of trans activists only hurt the female sex class. The male sex class is mostly unaffected, and so men have the luxury of being seen as kind and virtuous without actually sacrificing anything.

I have learned, from this whole debacle, how a certain kind of widespread contempt towards women is what drives much of this:

For example, it is the pain of trans athletes which we are to prioritise, not the pain of the female athletes who lose their chances of winning places on the podium or money prizes for some competitions or athletic scholarship from inclusiveness, and it is also the case that inclusiveness demands have almost entirely been aimed at only the female sex while the male sex has, until very recently, been left alone. (No 'impregnating parents' suggested for fathers while mothers are in some places now called 'gestating parents.')

The third aspect is, sadly, the fact that almost all negative consequences from the most fervent demands of trans activists only hurt the female sex class. The male sex class is mostly unaffected, and so men have the luxury of being seen as kind and virtuous without actually sacrificing anything.

Absolutely this.

Inamuddle36 · 12/05/2023 18:26

Why should anyone “have to check with the trans community about the veracity” of anything? What gives them a special ability to define human biology?
I think most people could agree trans women are trans women and trans men are trans men, with the right to live, love, dress, etc as they wish, and with the right to work, study, play, compete, etc with the same human rights as others.
In the case of sports, “equal rights” should mean opportunities to have funding to train and to compete against other trans women or trans men (as the case may be).
in the case of awards (ie Pulitzer Prizes), statistics of female winners would include females, statistics of male winners would include males, and statistics of trans women winners should include trans women, etc
Similarly, efforts to achieve certain percentage of female non-executive directors or MPs or whatever, those statistics should include females; new statistics can be tracked for trans women and trans men.
Does the above make sense?

NotHavingIt · 12/05/2023 18:52

I think it has become the equivalent of the women's and gay liberation movements for a generation that wasn't around then. It also continues with the themes of gender non conformity that both of those movements championed.

But add to that a post modernistic, techno -consumeristic age of individualism, trans-humanism and big pharma - and bingo - here we are.

Interesting piece, as usual, by Mary Harrington, today:

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ogbl#label/Personal%2FCampaigns%2Fcomplaints/FMfcgzGsmXBGmNzgMLJTkpNqpSvSGWXt

Gmail

Gmail is email that’s intuitive, efficient, and useful. 15 GB of storage, less spam, and mobile access.

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ogbl=#label/Personal%2FCampaigns%2Fcomplaints/FMfcgzGsmXBGmNzgMLJTkpNqpSvSGWXt

Delphinium20 · 12/05/2023 18:54

Ilovetea42 · 11/05/2023 20:18

I mean, trans and non binary people have existed since the beginning of time. This isn't a 'new' concept although it's getting much more attention recently. Many non Christian based religion's and cultures have always recognised a third gender and historically these people often fulfilled significant roles in society which was one of the reasons why when Christianity was being spread, these people were targeted as a threat in the same way that certain festivals and key dates were usurped by Christian traditions. An example of this is the acceptance of two spirit people in indigenous american culture which was challenged in the name of Christianity through enforced residential schools. We know that lgbt history has been erased because the majority of history has been recorded through a heteronormative lens. There are many, many examples of trans and non binary figures throughout history. I can accept it because its not a new trending fad. Trans people have always been around and will always continue to be around.

I dare you to take this tale and transplain it at a tribal meeting in the US. Go to a reservation and have a chat with a Lakota tribal leader about this. I'd love for you to jump into a Shoshone lodge meeting and tell them about their 2 spirits. Please let me be a fly on the wall when you attend the next tribe board meeting. Maybe you can fit it between planing for Day of Awareness for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Relatives and their item agenda of Anishinaabemda language classes for children. I can't wait to listen in and watch this whole interaction go down. I'll get my popcorn.

SargentSagittarius · 12/05/2023 18:54

The third aspect is, sadly, the fact that almost all negative consequences from the most fervent demands of trans activists only hurt the female sex class. The male sex class is mostly unaffected, and so men have the luxury of being seen as kind and virtuous without actually sacrificing anything.

You’re absolutely right about that @nepeta.

I have a couple of friends of friends on FB - they’re a gay couple who are rabidly pro-trans, and I honestly just find it bewildering.

They obviously identify with them as part of the rainbow community, and probably as effeminate presenting males.

But how can same-sex attracted people possibly think gender is the over-riding thing, and not sex?

But because they’re men, surrounded by men, and will never be impacted in the way women are, they either don’t, or won’t, get it.

And I know for a fact neither of them would EVER entertain a relationship with a fully intact transman - because they’re same-sex (not gender) attracted.

Woke in the streets, TERF in the sheet. 🙄

AmuseBish · 12/05/2023 19:05

Why should anyone “have to check with the trans community about the veracity” of anything? What gives them a special ability to define human biology?

Because of the context of the bit you have quoted was telling us who does and doesn't count as a "trans ally". Not to do with biology. I assume that the community in question has views on who is an ally to that community, more than a random "be-kind"-er.
And we can see that you can only be an ally if you deny material reality .

MavisMcMinty · 12/05/2023 19:12

I’ve gone from “those poor kids, so mixed up and confused, social media/porn must be to blame” to “sweet zombie jebus, how whiny and narcissistic can you be?!?!?!?”

As I saw someone put it so succinctly on MN, “When you over-reach you topple”.

GailBlancheViola · 12/05/2023 19:32

I have learned, from this whole debacle, how a certain kind of widespread contempt towards women is what drives much of this:

For example, it is the pain of trans athletes which we are to prioritise, not the pain of the female athletes who lose their chances of winning places on the podium or money prizes for some competitions or athletic scholarship from inclusiveness, and it is also the case that inclusiveness demands have almost entirely been aimed at only the female sex while the male sex has, until very recently, been left alone. (No 'impregnating parents' suggested for fathers while mothers are in some places now called 'gestating parents.')

Without a doubt nepeta it brings into sharp focus just how little is thought of women and how they and their feelings simply don't matter - all about the men. It became very clear during the Adam Bryan/Isla Bryson case, women on a Beauty Course uncomfortable about undressing in front of (now convicted double rapist) Adam Graham for the spray tan part of the course but coerced into doing so because TWAW/don't be transphobic. All those, including the posters on here, who chant/believe TWAW remained deafeningly silent or just shrugged their shoulders that is the level of contempt they have for women, that is the level of respect they have for women, it's repellent, it is sheer and utter misogyny.

thefactsarefriendly · 12/05/2023 19:36

One thing I keep on running into is being told that I don’t know or understand anything or most have very old fashioned education, without anyone actually answering anything.

Part of the thrill of postmodernism and queer theory for people of only moderate intelligence is that it makes them feel clever. The fact is, these people can believe rubbish because they aren't bright enough to think critically about anything. Long words impress them.

EsmaCannonball · 12/05/2023 19:45

Sadly, transactivism has just exposed the fact that most people, even people who regard themselves as feminists or left-wing, believe that men and women have innately different minds. Female Labour politicians, who would never dream of saying that women make better cleaners than engineers or that women are more interested in makeup than sport, do actually believe all that guff. Far from being disruptive, transactivism has allowed people to regress into comfortable, conservative ways of thinking about gender.

Then there are all the people, mostly men and frequently just plain old perverts, who absolutely hate women and loathe feminism and this is the biggest gift to them in ages. They don't actually believe that TWAW, but why admit that when they get to carry on hating women and get applauded as progressives for doing it?

Then there are the people who don't actually believe TWAW but they love a good witch hunt and transactivism gives them power. Destroying people, banning books, ruining businesses, tearing down organisations; that's the whole point, and they bloody love it.

Porn culture. The last 25 years or so has made porn exponentially accessible, society is addled with it and its effect has been massive. Men don't want to become women, they want to become the women in porn, women who are a total male invention in the first place. Adolescent and teenage girls are doing anything to avoid becoming the women in porn.

Trumpianism and fake news. Basically, tell big lies and bareface get away with it because people in your tribe care about winning more than the truth. Men can say they have no physical advantage in women's sports, whole strands of academia consist of making the most outrageous, ludicrous claims possible, newspapers will report opinion as scientific fact or report a woman has committed a crime, next to a mugshot of someone who looks like Boris Karloff. People know it's all shit but if it gives the other side a good kicking, then who cares?

LGB+T. The force-teaming with gay rights has been very successful. Let's be honest, most people still think this is all about a tiny, niche group of gay men, so what's the harm of being nice to them? These people haven't caught up. Feminism and gay rights have been colonised.

Kucinghitam · 12/05/2023 19:49

Really enjoying the discussion on this thread, but also I wanted to congratulate @MavisMcMinty on "sweet zombie jesus" which from now on I will attempt to include in all my conversations Grin

EsmaCannonball · 12/05/2023 19:52

As for 'trans people have always existed.' No. Sexism, misogyny and homophobia have always existed, therefore people who haven't fitted into sexist, misogynistic and homophobic societies have always existed.

Ilovetea42 · 12/05/2023 20:46

Delphinium20 · 12/05/2023 18:54

I dare you to take this tale and transplain it at a tribal meeting in the US. Go to a reservation and have a chat with a Lakota tribal leader about this. I'd love for you to jump into a Shoshone lodge meeting and tell them about their 2 spirits. Please let me be a fly on the wall when you attend the next tribe board meeting. Maybe you can fit it between planing for Day of Awareness for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Relatives and their item agenda of Anishinaabemda language classes for children. I can't wait to listen in and watch this whole interaction go down. I'll get my popcorn.

I got that information directly from some indigenous people so I've no need to explain anything to the source nor would I be stupid enough to think that I know more about indigenous culture and history than indigenous people do. You can save your popcorn for a movie instead.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/05/2023 21:23

I got that information directly from some indigenous people

Alexa - define clutching at straws 😂

AmuseBish · 12/05/2023 21:29

Sorry to go back to this @Ilovetea42 but in your (much appreciated) reply to me you said

"I would suggest that's because of the level of body dysphoria people experience. I believe that yes gender is separate from biological sex, but I can understand how living as one in your mind and in yourself but seeing the body of the opposite in the mirror would be difficult."

So do you think that gender is always associated with a body? I can't understand what you mean by "having one gender/mind and the opposite sex" would mean otherwise. It's like saying "i have a brain that is good at interior design but the opposite body". I can't grasp what a non-interior-design-skilled body would be like?

When you talk about minds and mentalities would you say that loosely/ broadly you are talking about cultural/social femininity and masculinity - whatever aspects are perceived to fall under those descriptions?