How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

Apologies for typos.

They want their physical body to match their mentality as that's the body they walk through the world in?

@Ilovetea42 how can you say a body can "match" a mentality? You literally said earlier that gender is nothing to do with bodies.

Please can you explain so I can understand! You said there is nothing female about a woman (woman as gender). Now you are saying that there are mentalities that match or align with certain body types. Do you not see the contradiction?

I know you have been ignoring my questions on this but I really want to understand.

Sorry I don't think I'm picking you up right.

"None of this justifies excluding women from positions of power. Which believing that TWAW does. "
Would you break this down for me please? I'm not clear on how accepting trans women are women excludes women from positions of power? Do you mean because you feel transwomen would take over the places currently held or that could be held by women born female?

"TW are male. And often rich." Can you tell me where you're sourcing this because my understanding is that many trans women are not economically well off and regularly are living in poverty?

What counts as an ally? My partner is a transman. I love him dearly.

I don't believe trans women should be competing against biological women in sports. Nor do I believe claiming to suddenly be female should get you put in a women's jail. Neither does my partner.

I think a lot of ally's and even trans people have very differing opinions to what is appropriate.

I don't know what my partner experiences. He looks like a man, but he's a biological woman.

I do think women would find him jarring if he entered women only spaces. If you can't see his vagina he's very much a man.

I think a lot of voices get drowned out by the most aggressive. There are trans people speaking out as well if you take the time to find them. YouTuber Blair White is my favourite.

We have women only short lists because we recognise that men have had disproportionate power. Some of the places on those short lists now go to men (TW).

I can't providenyou good data on the wealth of TW because the ideology works by ibscuring fact and does not like robust data. To spend so much time worrying about one's appearance and to focus so much on identity is often a middle class privilege. Helen Joyce's book Trans outlines the power behind the ideology and the rich males supporting it.

That's an interesting point and i take it on board about the other genders who would need to be accommodated. However does this approach not start to bring in the issue of who 'passes' as the gender they've transitioned to though? If a trans man who 'passes' as male were to use a female space would that not still make women uncomfortable for the same reasons why a transwoman might be excluded? In the issue of bathrooms for example, how would you know that transman is meant to be there due to having been born female or if they are just a random man chancing his arm?

Personally I don't believe that there are mentalities that "match" being female or male - I find it a regressive notion tbh, used in the past to justify why only men were suited to some roles and women to others - when actually, pre contraception, people probably were bound a lot more by their reproductive roles (or perceived ones).

My view is that a woman is a female with any "mentality ", and a man is a male with any mentality, so it's fascinating to me to try and hear the reasoning behind some people who believe that thinking a certain way or having a certain personality excludes someone from their sex class. It's othering and exclusionary.

I've never met a trans person who passes but I believe they may exist. Yes that is an issue but if we could trust societies respect for women only spaces that would help to admit women whatever they've done to their bodies. Ultimately it's a lot less problematic than your suggestion which does not accommodate great numbers of people.

Not a scooby, tbh!

More to the point though, why are they still pushing it, when they have been told repeatedly and shown, in some cases, the damage this has done and continues to do to young children.
That they don't even stop to think about it is particularly galling. I have no forgiveness for any of them.
In the words of anonymous...
" We do not forget! We do not forgive! "

Thank you for this discussion - some very thought provoking answers here. I have often thought that there are strong similarities to the witch craze in the early modern period , including the desperate backdating of the belief in a satanic witch cult by ‘believers’. A few scattered historical examples of witches, who were mainly dispensers of love potions and poisons, who might offer prophesies and personal fortune telling were pressed into the service of a sort of black mirror of Christianity. The difference, of course, that the few who actually claimed to be witches and were prepared to pay the penalty were enormously outnumbered by those who feared, persecuted, and attempted to eradicate them.
The trans movement on the other hand is sought out, protected and given special consideration and unusual privileges. If a man enters and wins a female sporting event, he is disqualified and possibly penalised, if he was allowed to compete at all. If a male bodied person who identifies as female does the same thing, ‘stunning, brave and gifted’. If a bearded man with male genitalia hangs around in spaces where female undress, he is stigmatised and ejected. If a person with a penis who still grows a beard identifies as female, the women who object to his presence are stigmatised and ejected.

So the frenzy and apparent contagion are similar, but the participation is rather different.

the frenzy of the Terror during the French Revolution is another example of apparently intelligent and well intentioned people losing sight of reality and probability , and eventually guillotining themselves to a standstill. Is the Cultural Revolution a similar phenomenon.

I think the idea of being in fashion and wanting to be ‘special’ also resonates. The ‘queer’ couples who appear to the uninitiated to be a bloke and a women in a heterosexual relationship give themselves a thrill by using names usually associated with the opposite sex, maybe changing a few garments around. Harmless fun, and wins approval from the desperately broad minded.

Perhaps there is also an element of ‘because we can’ ? In spite of the rewriting of history ( Joan of Arc introduced herself and called herself La Pucelle, which means young unmarried girl, no confusion or deception there), until the invention of synthetic hormones , it was not possible to fool the body into producing at least a simulacrum of the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex : beards and breasts. Of course it was always possible to remove breasts and genitalia, although the casualty rate was very high. Such removal was usually seen as a punishment , of course, or at the best, a cynical mutilation to achieve a practical advantage for someone else( the servants in the harem, the male sopranos).

And then the whole thing has been muddled by some people who see monetary , social, or sexual advantage in fostering the movement, and are preying on the unhappy, the unsettled or the unwell.

To be an ally you do not have to understand. It is not a belief as you put it. Religion is a belief. Just be a decent person and let people live as they choose. Allow everybody to be treated the same. Do not turn a blind eye to transphobia, just be kind. Stand up for marginalised people. Trans people do not owe you an explanation or to help you understand. They just want to live their lives the same as you do.

To be an ally you do not have to understand. It is not a belief as you put it. Religion is a belief.

is that post real?

what a good job you’ve done in putting the case that genderism is not a religion. I for one am fervently convinced now! TWAW! pats your head and backs away slowly.

And I don't think it's appropriate to assume all transwomen have malicious intent just because some individuals have been.

I don't assume that, no-one here does the point is how can you tell the difference between those that do have malicious intent and those that don't, same argument applies equally to all males? Life would be a darn sight easier if we could tell at a single glance wouldn't it. Keeping spaces resolutely single sex is a part of safeguarding.

It is not just about safety, it is also about privacy, dignity and comfort - do you think women are undeserving of these most basic of considerations?

As has been explained ad nauseum including males, any males however they identify, whatever their mental image of themselves, excludes many women from those spaces, spaces that are supposed to be designed and provided for them and for which they pay taxes for in many cases. On what planet is that right or acceptable?

@Pussycatbeen

Thank you for your response.

I hope you understand I wasn't being specifically derogatory to people who campaigned for the causes listed.

I campaigned for some (not all) of those myself, hence listing them!

I think perhaps though wasn't sufficiently articulate in explaining the difference between people who campaign for causes that are out of step with mainstream opinion due to having researched and understood the negative societal ramifications that a lack of change will result in and people who will join a call to arms because it is oppositional to mainstream opinion.

I think it's a progression of beliefs which starts with less insane manifestation but gets whisked along into full lunacy.

I see this in a lot of 'ideologies' including feminism, but usually to a less bonkers extent. Like the current thread over in feminism chat about femicide. A lot of the posters in that thread believe there is an 'epidemic' of femicide and that men's behaviour is 'endemic'.

I stated my opinion that 100 women out of 33 million annually isn't in any way an epidemic and not even remotely comparable to real epidemics like covid, even if the individual cases were horrific. The outrage was not unlike what you see when people tell the trans lobby that they don't believe in humans changing sex. It seems clear to me that humans can't change sex and that 0.0003% of men murdering women each year is hardly an epidemic, yet many people strongly disagree with me on both.

I think a large part of it is emotions dictating how people interpret facts and figures. Going back to my example about femicide, nobody would say there is an epidemic of people choking to death on their food despite it killing more than double the number of women annually than femicide. The reason is probably because it's a much less emotive topic/manner of death.

@Katypyee

To be an ally you do not have to understand.

You just have to be a total numpty and accept whatever another person tells you that you should believe 😂.

It is not a belief as you put it. Religion is a belief.

Belief ultimately the failure to accept reality in the face of evidence.

It is impossible to change sex. You can believe this is possible in the same way you can pray to whichever deity you choose.

There are numerous religions which have a massive variance on perspectives towards women's rights and homosexuality for example.

When you say "it's not a belief" what you actually mean is that trans ideology is a mantra, essentially an ideology that circumvents biological reality.

Just be a decent person and let people live as they choose.

Excellent. Like women who would like to access singe sex spaces. Living "as you choose" cuts both ways.

Allow everybody to be treated the same.

Again an excellent point. Let equality rule where the rights of trans people are not allowed to trample over those of women.

Do not turn a blind eye to transphobia, just be kind.

What is transphobia? Is being kind allowing male rapists in female prisons?

Just how kind do you want me to be?

Stand up for marginalised people.

I've spent a lifetime doing that. Will continue to do so.

Trans people do not owe you an explanation or to help you understand.

That's a pretty arrogant stance. You might want to rethink that position because if you want to further trans rights the starting point isn't alienating people, or refusing to engage in widening an understanding a trans person's perception. Put bluntly, when your attitude is "fuck you" don't be surprised when you get "fuck off" back.

They just want to live their lives the same as you do.

Some do yes. However, a not insignificant number don't.

I for example want to live life with access to female only spaces having experienced a serious sexual assault.

Is my desire less worthy?

They just want to live their lives the same as you do.

<sigh>

If ONLY that were true 🙏 We wouldn’t be amidst this culture war, if it were.

Are you admitting that you don’t understand what being trans is? Yet you believe they are marginalised, that they simply should be given all they demand, because… kindness?

Do you think that laws and policies should be based on your advice then? That law and policy makers should just assume that people saying their needs should be prioritised above those needing single sex spaces should get what they want?

In your ‘treat everyone the same’ world, what happens to women who need single sex spaces? They are some of the most marginalised people in the country. How does this work in your mind? Because your advice seems unworkable in any real life scenario. It is riven with mantras and meaningless when you try to apply it.

That’s fine as long as women and girls can keep their single sex spaces.

And children know you can’t change sex

This x million

Thay can live however they want. As long as the born males stay out of women's spaces.

I don't want to go to a public toilet and get off to the sound of other people peeing.
I don't want to put rapists in women's prisons.
I don't want men pretending to be lesbians.

I hate Nazis. Obviously. I hate conservative Christians jumping on the bandwagon of women's concerns to get votes. I hate bigots who won't leave LGB people in peace.

I'm happy to call out all the dark stuff in the second group. I'll do it all day long. Why are Transactivists so unwilling to call out the first group.

What?
Femicide is caused by the deliberate actions of people. Choking is accidental. There are huge amounts of info when you have a child about reducing the risk of choking.
The difference is because one is deliberate and therefore far more preventable in theory.

Speaks volumes that you can't see the difference between an accidental death and a murder (at best manslaughter in the unlikely event it's consensual).