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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The Stand Comedy Club statement on cancelling Jo Cherry

250 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 01/05/2023 15:34

twitter.com/StandComedyClub/status/1653017007921545221?s=20

OP posts:
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7
NatashaDancing · 02/05/2023 08:45

CremeEggQueen · 02/05/2023 08:23

As numerous people have explained to you, since the Forstater case, gender-critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act. Organisations cannot refuse to employ someone, or serve them etc simply because they have gender-critical beliefs.
And as I've said, numerous times, yes you're right you can't be refused service or to employ someone because of their beliefs, but you don't get an automatic right to an audience!

Are you doing this deliberately? I mean coming up with more novel misunderstandings of the law.

No one has said anything about "guaranteeing her an audience" that's up to members of the paying public to decide.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/05/2023 08:48

Nobody should have to listen to their views if they don't want to.

Nobody has to listen to her views. No one is forced to buy tickets.

This venue will have backtracked due to TRA pressure.

Yet another lesbian woman told to STFU in the name of progression.

How very 2023.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 02/05/2023 09:40

Nobody should have to listen to their views if they don't want to

Yet now Joanne Cherry has had to listen to their (non-protected) views and suffered adverse consequences from them when at no point did they have to listen to her.

Of course, as nobody has to listen to views they don't want to then if their employers and indeed Cherry exercised that freedom which also applies to them I guarantee some opinions in favour of protecting delicate ears from literal violence would be rather different.

RoyalCorgi · 02/05/2023 09:48

And as I've said, numerous times, yes you're right you can't be refused service or to employ someone because of their beliefs, but you don't get an automatic right to an audience!

This is bizarre. I don't think the Equality Act has anything to say about whether people should have to listen to views they don't agree with. But we'd be in a hell of a state if staff at theatres, comedy venues and so on throughout the country started refusing to work certain shifts because they didn't agree with the views expressed by the performer.

SueVineer · 02/05/2023 10:16

CremeEggQueen · 02/05/2023 01:07

you can’t refuse to serve someone because they are Christian or Jewish or gender critical.
Yes, serve them. Not listen to their views!
I can't refuse you service in my shop for example because I know you don't agree with people being gay, for example. You just want your pint of milk and loaf of bread, like everyone which you're entitled to.
If you decided to wang on about being gay is a sin though in the middle of the cereal aisle I'd be entitled to tell you to bog off somewhere else.
You're entitled to your belief.
Not an automatic audience.

If it’s your job to listen to them then generally you would have to do so or face losing your job. Eg if you’re a therapist or police officer you can’t walk off the job because someone says something that is a protected belief. In this case they wouldn’t generally need to listen to do their jobs. So they should just do their jobs and stop being bigoted.

SueVineer · 02/05/2023 10:25

OllytheCollie · 02/05/2023 07:39

I imagine Scottish venues are all aware of the Franklin Graham case and the Stand statement has been worded with that in mind. In the Graham case the venue lost because it appeared they cancelled Graham at least in part on the basis of his Christianity a protected characteristic. Here Cherry is being cancelled on the basis that the venue cannot operate that night if she attends. The venue makes no reference to her beliefs or sexuality or whether they take a view on them. They focus solely on operational reasons why it's impossible for them to host her. That may be inconvenient but it's not unlawful - they would not be obliged to provide a platform to Franklin Graham either IF their sole reason for cancelling were security based and due to protests planned outside. It was the fact in the Graham case the venue's sponsors Glasgow City Council said they endorsed LGBT protests (implicitly) at the event that meant their decision was discriminatory.

It’s discrimination to cancel the event. If your staff refuse to work then you need to get staff who can (which is easy enough- the general public don’t find gc views controversial). You can’t rely on your staff being bigoted as a get out of jail free card. Many have done that in the past - claiming can’t serve black people because staff are bigoted. It doesn’t work. If your staff won’t obey the law you must take action including dismissal. The employer is responsible for their bigotry.

WickedSerious · 02/05/2023 10:26

niandraladesand · 02/05/2023 00:52

Being transphobic is not a protected characteristic

Wouldn't that be like having an irrational fear of unicorns?

RobinaHood · 02/05/2023 10:28

Do some posters think that everyone who works in The Stand listens to every performance? Have they never been to any of The Stand clubs?
Part of the irony of this, isn't just that the staff and management are targeting someone with three protected characteristics - sex, sexual orientation, belief. But they're targeting someone who obviously knows the law. And that the management are placating a crowd who don't go to and have never been to The Stand (you can tell by their arguments). Alienating customers - never a good move.
It would also be interesting to see the parameters around all the funding that The Stand received from the Scottish Government. I'm guessing prudent financial management (not leaving your organisation open to obvious lawsuits); good contingency and risk assessment planning ( having agency staff available if all your staff refuse to work) and equality guidelines that match the Equality Act were all included in the conditions of funding.

CremeEggQueen · 02/05/2023 12:07

RoyalCorgi · 02/05/2023 09:48

And as I've said, numerous times, yes you're right you can't be refused service or to employ someone because of their beliefs, but you don't get an automatic right to an audience!

This is bizarre. I don't think the Equality Act has anything to say about whether people should have to listen to views they don't agree with. But we'd be in a hell of a state if staff at theatres, comedy venues and so on throughout the country started refusing to work certain shifts because they didn't agree with the views expressed by the performer.

So for example they should be forced to listen to a comedian tell racist jokes?

SquirrelSoShiny · 02/05/2023 12:24

Pluvia · 02/05/2023 08:41

No. I run a small construction-based team. My staff can't refuse to go into someone's house to do their job because the client is Jewish or Muslim or black or gay. Under the Equality Act 2010 you can't discriminate because someone holds a belief you don't approve of.

Staff can resign if they don't like it. Apparently when Swansea University rented their facilities to a group who held an event called Silencing Women, about women in academia being no-platformed and harassed, one of the bar staff, an agency worker who was trans, decided to resign as a matter of principle, even though they weren't scheduled to work the night of the event. I suggest the staff of The Stand take that principled approach and then the venue can employ new people who understand that freedom of speech is vital in a democracy and that the law matters.

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This.

PSNonsense · 02/05/2023 12:31

So for example they should be forced to listen to a comedian tell racist jokes?

How are they being forced to listen? I would imagine that if a comedian tells a racist joke they wouldn't be allowed back and if they were, the staff member could choose not to return either.

Comedy clubs are renowned for close to the bone risqué content. If you are in any way easily offended then a job in such a place isn't for you. Just a thought.

RoyalCorgi · 02/05/2023 12:32

I'd really like to ask CremeEgg and others of the same view whether it ever occurs to them that there is a principle at stake here that protects them as well as those of us who hold gender-critical views.

In other words, CremeEgg, if a venue found out that you held, and intended to express, opinions they didn't like, would they be within their rights to ban you from that venue? Would you be perfectly happy with that? Or are you capable of understanding that a law that protects the free speech of gender-critical people also protects the free speech of people with a whole range of views?

yourhairiswinterfire · 02/05/2023 12:41

So for example they should be forced to listen to a comedian tell racist jokes?

I believe this year they platformed Frankie Boyle, who has ''joked'' about:

-raping and murdering Holly Willoughby
-that Victoria Pendleton's strength is sexy but she still wouldn't be able to force him off her
-''joked'' that Katie Price married a cage fighter so he could stop her severely disabled son from raping her. Also ''joked'' that the 'loser' in a custody battle would be the one that had to to keep Harvey.
-cancer victims
-AIDS
-people with Downs Syndrome
-“I’ll abuse you so badly your gynaecologist will think you’ve been in a fucking car crash.”
-''I'm so old, my pussy is haunted''.

But The Stand draw the line at a woman who thinks biological sex is real and important. Quite strange, isn't it?

RoseslnTheHospital · 02/05/2023 12:48

But that's ok, because Boyle is a man and those are clever ironic jokes that non-uptight women would find hilarious. Or something.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/05/2023 12:50

yourhairiswinterfire · 02/05/2023 12:41

So for example they should be forced to listen to a comedian tell racist jokes?

I believe this year they platformed Frankie Boyle, who has ''joked'' about:

-raping and murdering Holly Willoughby
-that Victoria Pendleton's strength is sexy but she still wouldn't be able to force him off her
-''joked'' that Katie Price married a cage fighter so he could stop her severely disabled son from raping her. Also ''joked'' that the 'loser' in a custody battle would be the one that had to to keep Harvey.
-cancer victims
-AIDS
-people with Downs Syndrome
-“I’ll abuse you so badly your gynaecologist will think you’ve been in a fucking car crash.”
-''I'm so old, my pussy is haunted''.

But The Stand draw the line at a woman who thinks biological sex is real and important. Quite strange, isn't it?

Ah so they ARE just misogynists then.

Colour me shocked.

KalimbaMoon · 02/05/2023 12:55

Frankie Boyle’s misogynistic and ableist jokes are sickening, yet he thinks he’s some kind of right-on woke-bro. I’ve never forgotten his vile jokes about Rebecca Adlington’s appearance. He’s a misogynist through and through, whether he realises it or not.

Waitwhat23 · 02/05/2023 12:58

I've worked in a lot of venues and theatres.

Management would have laughed in my face if I'd refused to work an event, even the many who were very 'be kind' in their ethos.

What is bizarre is the claim that the venue cannot staff an event which is not due to take place until August, given how popular those types of jobs are and given the amount of extra staff they will take on during the Festival.

WickedSerious · 02/05/2023 13:06

PSNonsense · 02/05/2023 12:31

So for example they should be forced to listen to a comedian tell racist jokes?

How are they being forced to listen? I would imagine that if a comedian tells a racist joke they wouldn't be allowed back and if they were, the staff member could choose not to return either.

Comedy clubs are renowned for close to the bone risqué content. If you are in any way easily offended then a job in such a place isn't for you. Just a thought.

Some people seem to be under the impression that the staff are forced to sit in front of the stage and gaffer taped to chairs for the duration of the performance.

yourhairiswinterfire · 02/05/2023 13:15

WickedSerious · 02/05/2023 13:06

Some people seem to be under the impression that the staff are forced to sit in front of the stage and gaffer taped to chairs for the duration of the performance.

Show quote history

They also seem to be under the impression that 'Nazi', 'KKK Guy' and 'Racist' are protected characteristics Confused

Shelefttheweb · 02/05/2023 13:18

So if I had an event space and invited a speaker to talk about breeding rabbits, then staff discovered the speaker was Jewish and refused to work that shift as they were antisemitic and didn’t want to risk overhearing some of his talk, would I be ok to cancel the talk?

Fandabedodgy · 02/05/2023 13:24

Pudmyboy · 01/05/2023 15:51

I am puzzled that staff refusal to work leads to the event being cancelled rather than the staff being replaced, is this the tail wagging the dog?

Not if their woke bosses (one of which is an SNP MP) are in complete agreement with them

Shelefttheweb · 02/05/2023 13:25

Can an Muslims working at the Scottish Parliament demand gay MSPs not be allowed to speak?

Aaron95 · 02/05/2023 13:25

QueenHippolyta · 01/05/2023 23:38

Their posted message is hilarious; as it's an open admission of discrimination against a protected characteristic!

How stupid can they be; J. Cherry can sue them and win now so easily.

Sue them for what exactly? She can't sue The Stand for no-platforming her. She can't sue The Fringe for allowing this. The best she could do would be demand to be paid for the show she won't be doing.

Shelefttheweb · 02/05/2023 13:34

Aaron95 · 02/05/2023 13:25

Sue them for what exactly? She can't sue The Stand for no-platforming her. She can't sue The Fringe for allowing this. The best she could do would be demand to be paid for the show she won't be doing.

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Of course she can sue The Strand for no-platforming her, and The Fringe is they are involved. She could seek damages, including for injured feelings as allowed under the Equality Act 2010.

QueenHippolyta · 02/05/2023 13:57

If you want a proper legal opinion read on Twitter discrimination lawyer Audrey Ludwig or Michael Foran, lecturer in Public Law at Un. Glasgow, Roddy Dunlop KC, Anya Palmer.
The Stand hasn't any defense.