"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

Lesbians often have to put up with harmful stereotypes that may deter them from coming out, and in recent years the "lesbians are anti-trans" is another stereotype on top of the existing ones.

Ah well spotted.

It's the chap who has girl days and boy days.

Knows he's a man when it comes to acting contracts. Claims to be a girl when it comes to frotting in a queue.

I was deleted earlier for mentioning the comedian who shall not be named and the position of his hand as apparently we are not allowed to say what we see any more.

Fucking ridiculous.

That's what gives them the power.

Mumsnet you ought to be ashamed.

Interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing @MerlinsLostMarbles

"Being a lesbian and being trans are not mutually exclusive – sexual orientation and gender are different parts of our identities. You can be trans and a lesbian".

I sort of get it but also I struggle. My understanding is that lesbians are biological women who are attracted to biological women (same sex attraction). Does that mean that the author is saying that a lesbian could be attracted to a trans man? i.e. to a biological woman who has a male gender identity.

I'm not a lesbian so I'm going to play it back on myself as a straight biological woman to get my head around it (I think I've got the sex and gender bit right):

Being straight and trans are not mutually exclusive - sexual orientation and gender are different parts of our identities. You can be trans and a straight person.

So I'm a straight person who is attracted to another straight person (opposite sex attraction) who could be trans. That means I could be attracted to a biological man who identifies as a trans woman. Correct? I guess I could in theory.... true.

Or is it the other way round and a biological straight woman like me could be attracted to a biological woman who has a male gender identity? Presumably not as that would make me a lesbian woman, because the trans man is biologically a woman. So I think I got it the right way round the first time.

The only bit I'm really struggling with is how to keep the sexual orientation (same sex attraction) and the gender identity (male, female or other gender identity) separate like the author explains. Does that make sense?

Oops sorry @aseriesofstillimages I'm not sure how I ended up grabbing your quote there! That was just meant to be a response to @MerlinsLostMarbles re the original post.

Ahh @BonfireLady for the purposes of clarity I will use some 'old fashioned' terms even if the post does get deleted

Yes it is the current Stonewall position that heterosexual men, like all people, are free to choose to identify and label their gender identity howsoever they wish. If the gender identity they feel suits them best is woman, they would then be a woman (who remains attracted to women) and therefore lesbian is the correct and appropriate term for them to use to describe their sexual orientation.

I am genuinely not sure if we are allowed to say peaked now? This was the issue on which I first found I could not actually agree to the demanded concessions.

The special feeling that would allow a heterosexual man to decide that from now on he will be pursuing sexual / romantic relationships solely with homosexual women is imo entitlement, it seems to me to be utterly contemptuous of the feelings and sexual orientation of others.

Some understandably express high levels of frustration that for reasons apparently beyond the ken of mortal men the other lesbians are happy to be friends but do not actually want to have sex with them, and the reality is so very different to the fantasy / hoped for outcome. They can become very bitter and or very very lonely so I'm pretty grumpy with everyone who encourages and 'supports' this and everyone who said anything to him to persuade and reassure such men that this was a great plan that would make them a lot happier.

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The issue is as ever utterly confounded and confused by language and preferred pronouns. Because there are also a great many transmen (who are obviously trans people) that still call themselves lesbians and can and do date lesbians.

So in new speak it is absolutely no longer the case to say lesbians don't sleep with men.

Yes, Magdalen is much missed. What a star. RIP.

No worries!

Same

Calling trans people black faced actors and sick fucks.
How does that make you a hero sheroe whatever?
We clearly have very different views on the definition

Quoting:

https://detester.org/publication/115

"Firstly, it should be mentioned that super straightness is not about genitalia. Genital preferences aren’t necessarily transphobic by themselves. However, transphobia becomes apparent when even after a trans person undergoes gender reassignment surgery and matches one’s so-called genitalia preference, that person is still completely disregarded as a potential partner."

Quoting:

https://mashable.com/article/no-trans-people-preference-transphobic

"“No trans people” cannot be a preference, because the only characteristic shared by all trans people is transness. Being trans doesn’t determine what your body looks like, and it’s an exclusion that reinforces systemic discrimination. Preferences are usually related to specific physical characteristics (you might have a “type”, like a certain hair colour) or actions (oral sex, kinks). Reducing trans people to either of those categories is an oversimplification often rooted in misunderstanding or transphobia."

Yes it is the current Stonewall position that heterosexual men, like all people, are free to choose to identify and label their gender identity howsoever they wish. If the gender identity they feel suits them best is woman, they would then bea woman (who remains attracted to women) and therefore lesbian is the correct and appropriate term for them to use to describe their sexual orientation.

there are also a great many transmen (who are obviously trans people) that still call themselves lesbians and can and do date lesbians.

Hmmmmmm! Hopefully Stonewall will figure out that the best way to support transmen (either lesbian or straight) is to say that transwomen are men who identify as women. That should be seen as a positive and something to be celebrated. If they are adamant that sexual orientation and gender identity are separate (and I agree with that), transwomen being men who identify as women (and transmen being women who identify as men) is the only thing that makes any sense. @MerlinsLostMarbles do you think there would be a way for Stonewall to see how positive this could be for the whole of the LGBT community?

Actually, just to add a further thought to this:
If Stonewall could reframe it as a positive and celebrate that transwomen are men who identify as women, this could also be very helpful in allaying the fears that the trans community has about discrimination. There was a really good articulation of this fear in another thread from a Maslow's hierarchy of needs perspective.

To explain myself better re the fear: if transwomen are men, this removes the point of conflict between women's rights and transwomen's (men who identify as women's) rights, which could remove a significant amount of the foundation which underpins the fear. Also, turning it around and celebrating that transwomen are men who identify as women helps to highlight a minority so that discrimination against them can be avoided. It also respects their gender identity belief (that they identify as women) while accepting the fact that not everyone has a gender identity belief.

Have you watched her videos? She picks apart the trans nonsense piece by piece, I mean look at this classic she totally rips apart the idea of some man pretending to be a woman because he slapped on a skirt and some makeup:

Lesbians reject transwomen because they are MEN and genital surgery doesn't change that, the surgically created vagina is NOT a vagina, it's a very poor imitation. It turns my stomach to think of it

Then neither of you are paying attention (or you metaphorically have your hands over your ears shouting la la la).
It is everywhere.

You have also been asked previously not to use the term gender criticals

So then why ban lesbians from a dating site just for saying, "biological females only"?

It's not transphobic but women need to be banned from the site for saying it for some other reason?

🤢

They don’t care. Why should they listen to women (even repeatedly) telling them to stop using a term that is (intentionally) dehumanising and dismissive?

Policing other people’s language and thought? Yes. Absolutely. But there’s no need for them to treat non-compliant women with any basic respect, is there?

Having just seen the twitter video of the female person screaming into a microphone repeatedly with rage that law makers in the states have enforced single sex spaces, and the framing of this as horror that trans people cannot use the spaces of their choice....?

There appears from the evidence to be a lot of people without capacity to take on board that things do not work for other people, that other people have rights too, that other people are human too. It just does not compute. It does not enter onto the radar. And the passionate screaming and 'I hate you!' with a total lack of awareness that they are in a public place in full view, it looks like a very, very large toddler encountering the word 'no' demonstrates the barrier even further. Negotiation is being repeatedly tried, it has been here for years, 13 pages of it here. All that remains when that fails, is firm boundaries.

There appears from the evidence to be a lot of people without capacity to take on board that things do not work for other people, that other people have rights too, that other people are human too. It just does not compute. It does not enter onto the radar

that is exactly the problem.

Quite right - referring to part of another person’s body as a “festering hole” makes me feel sick too.

The issue is the transwomen (men) who are sexually attracted to women get their high and validation from violating our boundaries.
Their 'gender euphoria ' aka sexual excitement will deflate by using the men's or unisex.
So it's a zero sum game and all transwomen, even the 'old-fashioned kind ones', need to be ejected.