Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP's defensiveness perhaps comes from holding a different view from the majority. Which isn't easy. So - looking forward to you answering some qu's, OP.

I'm not there at the moment, I was commenting on that thread and got the idea fir this thread. I've been offline for a bit.

See what I mean with the assumptions and bad faith. 🙄

There were some fairly reasonable questions on the first couple of pages. Not sure why the OP hasn't attempted to address them.

Particularly as she apparently had all the same questions once, but someone was able to address them all and allay her fears. Not sure why she can't do the same now.

I cannot stand this 'someone took the time to explain things clearly to me and now I know'. How can anyone explaining anything change biology or the fundamental right of a female to feel grouped with other females. You honestly think it's because someone hasn't taken the time to explain it to us??

You do realise we have had years and years of this type of disinegenuous question on here? You could just go back through the many highly informative and articulate posts that have been made down the years on any number of thread topic. -including the one you have just posed.

OP, can you pick out the questions that have been asked in good faith and answer them?

There are plenty of lurkers on these boards. Answer for their benefit, if not the usual posters on here.

As soon as I saw the thread title I knew that 'genuinely' and 'good faith' were going to have the same treatment in terms of deviation from their accepted definition as the word 'woman'. It's literally the upside down.

What is a woman? Can someone, ANYONE (looking at you OP) answer this bloody question? Have a bash, please!

How is this considered a 'gotcha'. The mind boggles.

Somebody asked you what you thought a woman was - but you effectively blanked her question with a dismissal. How can you begin to talk about women's rights if you cannot yourself define what a woman is?

@GailBlancheViola

Now you are teasing me!

It's like delayed gratification!

OP I would genuinely like to discuss this in good faith. What I'd love to see is practical solutions that protect all groups. The solution that seems best to me is to add third spaces (gender neutral spaces) wherever possible - e.g. for toilets, changing rooms, support groups etc. I would be happy for some of my taxes to go towards this. As well as benefiting trans and gender non-conforming people, it would be useful for dads with daughters / mums with sons.

Could I ask what your views are on this OP? Or whether you have other/better solutions I might not have thought of?

To the others. Think on what you gain from shutting another woman/thread down with posts designed to get your nastiness out or offend.

Who is shutting you down? Being asked questions you can't answer is not shutting you down. Being able to define things is essential for functioning law. I think you'd be pretty upset if you insured your car and then the insurance company refused to pay out because they disputed your definition of a car.

There is no such thing as women's rights if men are included in the definition of women. Women are not oppressed on the basis of their clothes, make up or hair but on the material reality of biological sex. Acknowledging biological sex is not biological essentialism.

Surely if it's all so obvious you will have no problem explaining why we are wrong.

Its a gotcha because it can't actually be answered because deep down the whole world knows the answer is an adult human female so to a believer in gender identity being more important than anything else its an unanswerable question.

Anyone who doesn’t know most TW have penises is an amateur

So @beachcitygirl you return to berate us for our bad faith assumptions but refuse to engage with any of our good faith questions? Why is that?

What a load of total bullshit. You're the bad faith actor here.

Anyway to recap on my point...trans data would not significantly swing the global gender gap index as trans identifying people score poorly across all measures used and would therefore not swing the data so that it appeared that women (as defined by sex) are doing better than they actually are.

Where does the data come from that measures what TW earn? We know from the recent fiasco with the Census that the data is easily corrupted.

Beachcitygirl, a number of us have asked what it was that changed your mind regarding TW

I have gone the opposite way to you - I started at 'be kind' and am now a hard 'no' to any male in a female only space, however he identifies. In most of life, the sex of a person doesn't matter to me and I daresay many other people. But when it does, it REALLY does.

I am always interested to hear what people with an opposing view to mine have to say - either to adjust my own position, or to underline my current stance

So I'll ask again - what were the questions you had before and what were the patiently given answers that changed your mind?

AND if TW are women, at what point in time does that magical happenstance actually occur?
The moment they declare it?
The moment they put on a skirt?
The moment they have surgery?

WHAT is it that changes?

So to recap....

"Shut up, be kind, agree with me" is the vibe I'm getting.

@beachcitygirl Rather try to read through the thread and pick out the posts that are acceptable to you, why don't you summarise your position fully, then posters will be able to see where the points of difference are. Can you summarise what you were told by the amazing person who persuaded you that you were wrong about self-id?

@Boiledbeetle I kept forgetting to use the shift key when pressing return, done now! Enjoy.

Where is the trans phobia?? I can't find it? Anyone?????
It is not transphobic to support womens' rights. Y'know- the hard won rights that women had to fight for.
If you mean a fear of men - all men until we find out otherwise, then you're probably not wrong. I've no time for NAMALT either.
I too would love OP to enlighten this thread with the revelation/explanation/ or whatever from the person who helped them to change their views.
Whatever, it is impossible to change your sex

Actually I'm equally astonished by @Boiledbeetle dissing lemon drizzle cake! How very very dare you!!😁😁

just reposting this to try to draw it to the OP's attention. seems like a sensible approach

Some of that was John Travolta identifying as me.

John Travolta in ‘nicolasface’ if you will.