Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

The 0P, it.seems to me, came here, not to have a free and frank discussion , but to instruct us in the error of our ways.

Maybe the OP's problem is that she's not a man.

As a man, I think it's very generous of you to say that I should be able to demand the right to be "treated in every aspect as a woman", but it's mind-bogglingly naive. Okay, you may never have seen inside a man's head, but, seriously, don't you know what men are like?

I may be a lovely man (obviously, cos I'm Nick Cave), but if you're letting me in you're letting in every other man.

I'll gladly take any special funding you have, and accept a place in a "female" prison, if it's as simple as ticking an "F" box. Why not?

The only reason I wouldn't would be a wish to avoid upsetting women - but in a situation where any man can do it, I'd be a fool not to, and it's probably best that as many men as possible do it to try to end the policy sooner rather than later. I could reconcile it with my conscience that way.

The thing is, we're at the stage where "self-ID" has only very recently happened, and men have only even more recently seen that it's happened.

We're in a very small window where the take-up is still somewhat small, but rapidly increasing. In some places like California, very sizeable proportions of the male sex offender population have applied to be moved to "female" prisons.

Some organisations are suddenly trying to figure out how to stop any man just having a go at female power-lifting, and realising they can't. The increase in men claiming to be women is compelling organisations to rework their rules - even org like World Athletics that never reached self-ID have had enough problems to move in totally the opposite direction.

Lack of awareness of self-ID is the only reason it hasn't already imploded, and in places where there is wider awareness, it is in the process of imploding.

Once men realise that "F" is just an arbitrary meaningless thing on a form that lets them get a cushy time, they'll tick it. Why wouldn't I, if it doesn't mean anything? If you're not asking for my sex, why should I tell you my sex?

Seriously? I HATE LEMON DRIZZLE CAKE...But if you've got a good cherry Madeira cake recipe I'm all ears

Hilarious, you have a firm settled opinion and won't tolerate others firm settled opinions.

You will never answer the questions put to you because you never, ever do.

.

Yesssssssssss 💋💋💋

Seriously? I HATE LEMON DRIZZLE CAKE...But if you've got a good cherry Madeira cake recipe I'm all ears

I can help you out there @Boiledbeetle I've come over all peculiar in these last couple of months and been baking up a storm.

Lemon drizzle cake is very fashionable at the moment,it used to be carrot cake that everyone clamoured for.

Happy days.

What you mean is you want us all to agree with you. And when we don’t you tell us we are not welcome to your discussion. One which you left pretty sharpish. You also gave us your settled views. And refused to engage in an actual discussion. But mostly you found yourself incapable of defending your own views.

My view, for what it’s worth, I’m with ‘I’ve no more fucks to give’ given the Ireland I grew up in, and I’m damned if men are now going to tell me what my opinions should be, what language I should use. Aided and abetted by their naive handmaidens. If you want us to change our minds, you’ll have to convince us. Demonstrate men in a women’s prison, isn’t an issue. Show us men swimming in women’s sports is a level playing field. Off you go. If you are genuine in you OP there is two genuine questions to you right there.

1. What is a woman?
2. What is a transwoman?
3. Can a woman be a transwoman? If not, why not?
4. Do you believe there are ANY circumstances where natal women should be entitled to their own spaces/services?
5. Do you believe that minors should be able to decide what "gender" they are and have access to puberty blockers / life altering surgery?
6. How do we decide which trans women are "genuine" trans people without letting in bad faith actors who are using this ideology as a loophole to gain access to vulnerable women and girls?
7. Should transwomen be incarcerated with natal women in every single circumstance (ie sexual offenders)? If not, why not?
8. Should transwomen be allowed to play sport against natal women? If not, why not?

Radicalised!

It's nonsense isn't it? My old friend M who I have known for 30 odd years, all through him leaving his wife and kids 20 years ago to live with a man whilst wearing women's clothes, hasn't changed sex. He knows, I know, we all know. It's the only way he can bear to live with a man though, his homophobia runs deep.

I don't want to be forced to pretend M is female or treat other Ms as if they are, even he doesn't think that and people that describe this as "frothing at the mouth" are horrible. What a way to address everyone.

I haven't baked in a long time but was looking for my preferred CMC recipe the other day and it's disappeared. I'm bereft!

I'm still hoping OP will be back.

I can tell you right now, you could give this data to a reputable statistician, outline your concerns (and actually, I do appreciate what you're saying) and they would tell you the scale of the data means that any influence would be pretty negligible.

It absolutley matters for recording convicted sex offenders. A small number of men being recorded as women will make a big difference to the percentage of sex offenders recorded as female. How do you devise effective rehabilitation programmes if we aren't accurately recording sex? We know there are differences between make and female sex offenders.

As Helle said, it matters when it matters.

Hi

Had to go to my mums to make her dinner.

So. I see a lot of responses.
A lot of sarcasm
A lot of people not wanting a single slightly different thread.

I have tried a few times to engage on other discussion threads on the feminist boards and found it really unpleasant and the behaviour & bigotry from some made me bristle.

I thought there may be a place where the "same" names don't take over, where nuance counts and where people will genuinely speak with each other.

I didn't say others aren't allowed, I just don't see the point. For example I seen a thread the other day that had "gender woo" in the title, after a cursory glance I knew there was no point me engaging. I would be wasting my time and reporting posts a lot and no-one needs that.

I like to discuss things with other women. I don't like reading transphobia and I believe many other people don't like it either. I had no intention of it all being me, answering every question, but an exchange of thoughts.

I've no desire to waste my time answering dog whistle "what is a woman" by posters who are extremely frequent gc posters on here who have in other threads used the phrase "blokes in frocks" it's a waste of all our time and frankly pointless for everyone.

Depressingly there is only about 3 genuine posters here and so many keyboard warriors searching out their "gotcha" moments
Making massive assumptions about me and some even accusing me of lying about my experience with this.

Life's tough enough, I like discussing things with other feminists. I'm not going to play bait for some radicalised transphobia to shout "gotcha"

Shout into the ether. Agree with each other on every single other thread on these boards but wouldn't it be lovely if yiu would let women who disagreed or didn't know where they stand speak occasionally.

To the genuine women. Responding shortly. Putting dinner out. - To the others. Think on what you gain from shutting another woman/thread down with posts designed to get your nastiness out or offend.

I can pm you mine if you wish.

YES as am I. But until then I'll just whisper sweet nothings in your ear.

A manly wave G’day to you to another Nick Cave. 👋

Oooh can you! Can you! Can you!

Happy days

Oh, was that the flounce?

It's pretty pathetic haranguing someone who has probably gone for their tea, or is just not up for vitriol on this place.

Anyway to recap on my point...trans data would not significantly swing the global gender gap index as trans identifying people score poorly across all measures used and would therefore not swing the data so that it appeared that women (as defined by sex) are doing better than they actually are.

The top 4 countries in the global gender gap index, examining gender gaps on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria, all have policies of self ID.

I am now also out and you may feel free to start the haranguing here.

Think on what you gain from shutting another woman/thread down with posts designed to get your nastiness out or offend.

Fucking hell, irony is lost on you isn't it! 😂

Will do.

Op - there are countless pertinent questions respectfully asked - yet you've not answered any of them (while finding time to post on another thread ) 🙄

Asking questions is not "transphobia".

Being concerned for the rights of women and girls is not "transphobia".

You refuse to even define what you believe to be a "woman", so how can people discuss is transwomen are "women" or not when we have no starting point for what a woman actually IS?