Page 25 | Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 16:15

@Helleofabore prophetic* not pathetic 😂

Ofcourseshecan · 28/04/2023 16:16

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 13:55

I would like to hear the answers to your questions too Ofcourse.

Show quote history

I don’t dare offer you a slice of this delicious cake while we wait, Helle. But I fear we will have to wait a long time.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 28/04/2023 16:24

The OP basically started with 'women don't exist, women have no rights, and I want you to acknowledge that without any backchat'. It isn't surprising that people objected.

JolyGoodBloviator · 28/04/2023 16:24

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 15:37

@SpookyFBI And if you're genuinely confused about the sporting differences between the sexes, please see Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles), Jon Pike (@runthinkwrite) and Ross Tucker (@Scienceofsport) on Twitter.

Yes, absolutely! I love Ross Tucker’s podcast.

This isn’t a mysterious topic with no answers available - sport science is serious business, ‘we don’t know how much difference cross sex hormones make so let males compete in the female category’ is a complete myth, it’s just designed to make people believe that the science doesn’t exist.

Human babies have different growth charts based on sex from birth, there is no way to make a boy into a girl or a man into a woman, not even if natal puberty is blocked completely.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 16:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheSingingBean · 28/04/2023 16:33

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha.

Spooky - the problem is that unless there is some agreement about what language actually means it's impossible to have any kind of meaningful conversation. So establishing what a person understands by the word 'woman' is fundamental to anything else that we might discuss.

Equally, what is meant by the term 'living as a woman'? I have yet to have this explained to me, and yet it is lies at the crux of trans ideology.

Just because it's the first question a poster asks doesn't mean that it's being 'used as a gotcha.' But it does mean that without some agreement over the word, a conversation beyond that point is fruitless for everyone.

If a poster maintains (as I believe the OP did) that 'woman' is a construct, or if a poster believes a woman is 'anyone who says they are' there's absolutely no point in thrashing that particular dead horse, as far as I'm concerned.

Fairislefandango · 28/04/2023 16:38

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha.

You can try to answer it just the same, whether you think it's being used as a gotcha or not. The problem is that the only possible answers seem to be a) adult human female b) anyone who says they're a woman or c) a load of fence-sitting, nonsensical waffle and prevarication. Only one of those answers makes any sense.

PorcelinaV · 28/04/2023 16:41

What if you magically switched bodies?

What if a Man Magically Switched to a Female Body?

_____Stream Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/KingArPharaz%C3%B4nTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/thekingcriticalPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/kingarpharazo...

https://youtu.be/43Jk6Y8JTy8

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 16:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Such as excellent well post deserves a reward.

Cake?

I've pre deleted my funny witty gif choice

JanesLittleGirl · 28/04/2023 16:43

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 28/04/2023 09:49

beachcitygirl

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

okay, so your transwoman should be subject to random sexual harassment in the street, at school, at work, from puberty on.

Your transwoman should experience pain and discomfort and mood swings one week in four from puberty on.

Your transwoman should have an expectation of being paid less than many people with lower skills and fewer qualifications because those people are not women.

Your transwoman should have an expectation of being talked down to and often silenced in public.

Your transwoman should know that being pregnant, in their own body, with all the discomforts and dangers attendant on that, is part of the package, that raising the child that results will be their primary responsibility and that society will judge them, personally, for anything that child does or experiences that is viewed negatively. otoh, if they opt out of childbearing in their own body they will be judged for that too.

Your transwoman should have to negotiate life in a word where ca half the population is people who are ca 15% larger, physically stronger, and far more aggressive than they are.

Your transwoman should know that complaining about this may result in their being attacked by more of these larger aggressive people.

Your transwoman should know that suffering violence from one of those larger aggressive people may result in their being offered a hostel place sharing a room with another larger aggressive person.

Your transwoman should know that if they drift into substance abuse and addiction as a result of that, there will be larger aggressive people in prison too.

Your transwoman must accept that most medications and many medical procedures have not been fully tested for their safety.

Your transwoman must accept that many many everyday objects, from car seat belts to lawn mowers, are designed for people ca 15% larger and will be hard to use, and sometimes dangerous.

Your transwoman should know that in late middle age they will endure about a decade of physically and psychological traumatic changes in their bodily functions, affecting hormones, bones and other systems.

And that complaining about any of this will draw forth derision from most of those larger aggressive people, and that some of those larger aggressive people will express that derision by dressing in clothes designed to mock the transwoman, adopting a name that demeans the transwoman, and will threaten the transwoman with charges of bigotry and with actual violence if they object.

You know what? Your transwoman is never going to experience that, because biological sex is real, and pretending it isn't won't make it go away.

So maybe your transwoman should accept that being one of the larger, more aggressive people is a fact, and that if they want to oppose misogyny and patriarchy they should stand to their own feet to do it.

This (apart from the transwomen references) reminds me so much of The Talk that I had from DM when I was 12. The only difference is that after she had completed the list of the 'joys' of womanhood, she finished off with "and in return you get to wear pretty clothes and smell nice." TWs take the last bit without having to worry about the womanhood main part.

Igneococcus · 28/04/2023 16:47

I'm still entirely unclear about which sort of question OP would have found acceptable.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 16:48

Igneococcus · 28/04/2023 16:47

I'm still entirely unclear about which sort of question OP would have found acceptable.

Where can I get the manual for the Stated Belief which Must Not Be Questioned?

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 16:49

I swear its just a modern form of Evangelicalism.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 16:50

Very insightful post, Red.

Kucinghitam · 28/04/2023 16:51

Nice one @RedToothBrush!

WickedSerious · 28/04/2023 16:52

Igneococcus · 28/04/2023 16:47

I'm still entirely unclear about which sort of question OP would have found acceptable.

'How will we ever be able to thank you O wise one'?

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 16:58

Can @RedToothBrush or someone else give me the gist of your/their deleted post?

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 17:00

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 16:58

Can @RedToothBrush or someone else give me the gist of your/their deleted post?

The Good Faith Script.

Which clearly doesn't go down well being written down. Must have hit a nerve.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 17:03

Wow! This is one of those threads! What's there's that many holes it just gets zapped entirely isn't it?

What's the Fucking point?

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 17:03

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 16:58

Can @RedToothBrush or someone else give me the gist of your/their deleted post?

It was the truth written down in easy to understand bullet points.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 17:04

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 17:03

Wow! This is one of those threads! What's there's that many holes it just gets zapped entirely isn't it?

What's the Fucking point?

Sometimes the point is to try and get posters deletions and/or suspensions or bans.

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 17:10

Calling it a modern form of evangelicalism disregards everything we know about the history of shifting what was a closed door activity into a public form of intrinsic sexual identity on a par with same sex attraction.

It is not the same.

It's become a civil rights movement because:

Existing civil rights demands are already mainstream, provided you are in a largely secular country.

Youth movements want their own unique "better than old people" movements.

It is mostly disseminated via the internet which is not as restrictive as evangelical methods of engagement.

It's actually a single sex dominated drive, despite the number of females caught by the contagious nature.

By now most people have figured this out. Male sexuality is one of the most powerful driving forces on the planet along side acquisition.

All the left wing people supporting this seem unable to differentiate between types of dominant territory acquisition.

Probably because they want their own "better than old people" movement more than they want to resist acquisition of other people's territory at the end of the day.

NotHavingIt · 28/04/2023 17:10

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 14:59

OP I hope you haven’t been demoralised by what’s happened to your thread. I also think having these discussions in a trans inclusive way is important and useful. It really is frustrating to want to have a nuanced conversation about sex and gender and the different ways our identities are formed and how they may be influenced by a combination of biology and society and how that process may not be the same for everyone and instead having to wade through 20 pages of ‘man is not woman, end of discussion’

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I think it’s also really worth actually researching what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages between the sexes, and how are they affected by different levels of transition (instead of just taking it as a foregone conclusion that men are superior to women at sports). Also how are they affected by other variables - height, weight, body type, fat content, training… and are these differences still as stark at the extreme ends, not just the averages. Is there any overlap and what does that mean?

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

Being a woman is not about "feeling like a woman" - it is simply a fact of biology. A woman is an adult human female.

If you woke up with a penis one morning then you'd still be who you are inside - but you might find that your new appendage might start behaving in ways you were not used to, seemingly of its own free will. 🤔

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 17:12

Thanks Red and NickCave.

It angers me so much that even on a forum ostensibly for women, we're not allowed to speak in plain terms about what it means to be female.

Woman is not and never can be a feeling in a man's head. Hope you've got that, mumsnetHQ.

NotHavingIt · 28/04/2023 17:12

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 14:59

OP I hope you haven’t been demoralised by what’s happened to your thread. I also think having these discussions in a trans inclusive way is important and useful. It really is frustrating to want to have a nuanced conversation about sex and gender and the different ways our identities are formed and how they may be influenced by a combination of biology and society and how that process may not be the same for everyone and instead having to wade through 20 pages of ‘man is not woman, end of discussion’

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I think it’s also really worth actually researching what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages between the sexes, and how are they affected by different levels of transition (instead of just taking it as a foregone conclusion that men are superior to women at sports). Also how are they affected by other variables - height, weight, body type, fat content, training… and are these differences still as stark at the extreme ends, not just the averages. Is there any overlap and what does that mean?

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

Perhaps you can also recognise how demoralising and exasperating it is for people who regularly post here, when someone else creates such a thread, apparently in 'good faith' - but then proceed sto dismiss genuine questions of fundamental importance as " dog whistles" and so on.