Page 24 | Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

beachcitygirl · 2023-04-27T16:40:09+00:00

Hello. This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id. I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong. It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up. I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off. There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine. I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk: My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 14:59

OP I hope you haven’t been demoralised by what’s happened to your thread. I also think having these discussions in a trans inclusive way is important and useful. It really is frustrating to want to have a nuanced conversation about sex and gender and the different ways our identities are formed and how they may be influenced by a combination of biology and society and how that process may not be the same for everyone and instead having to wade through 20 pages of ‘man is not woman, end of discussion’

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I think it’s also really worth actually researching what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages between the sexes, and how are they affected by different levels of transition (instead of just taking it as a foregone conclusion that men are superior to women at sports). Also how are they affected by other variables - height, weight, body type, fat content, training… and are these differences still as stark at the extreme ends, not just the averages. Is there any overlap and what does that mean?

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

HatThatWearsYou · 28/04/2023 15:07

@ImaniMumsnet Really? Seriously?

Can't have anything nice can we, not even a bit of harmless cake chat 🙄

Suspend me if you like.

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 15:09

@ImaniMumsnet That is absolutely ridiculous. You're actually telling us that we can't chat and laugh amongst ourselves while we wait for the OP to return and answer the questions that she invited us to ask?

Why does mumsnet do this?

Signalbox · 28/04/2023 15:10

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

So do you only want to hear from people who don’t think sex is binary and immutable? I’m trying to work out who you and op want to participate in this discussion. Is it only those who think TWAW?

Nellodee · 28/04/2023 15:10

Spooky FBI, many of us have researched those issues in great depth and it’s why we’re no longer undecided. If you only want undecided people to join in, unfortunately that means you’re going to have to do your own research.

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 15:18

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 12:32

I guess its worth looking at the power dynamics and structures we're working within.

Bearing in mind also that FWR has always had an element of cat-herding built into it.

Stupid question what is FWR short for?

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 15:21

Feminism Women's Rights board

Datun · 28/04/2023 15:23

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 14:59

OP I hope you haven’t been demoralised by what’s happened to your thread. I also think having these discussions in a trans inclusive way is important and useful. It really is frustrating to want to have a nuanced conversation about sex and gender and the different ways our identities are formed and how they may be influenced by a combination of biology and society and how that process may not be the same for everyone and instead having to wade through 20 pages of ‘man is not woman, end of discussion’

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I think it’s also really worth actually researching what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages between the sexes, and how are they affected by different levels of transition (instead of just taking it as a foregone conclusion that men are superior to women at sports). Also how are they affected by other variables - height, weight, body type, fat content, training… and are these differences still as stark at the extreme ends, not just the averages. Is there any overlap and what does that mean?

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

How can you want to talk about sport if you don't understand that men are stronger than women?

It's the entire reason that women are even able to be oppressed.

if you woke up with a penis, yes you would be a man. These Freaky Friday analogies don't work, because the definition of men and women IS about reproductive potential. That's the whole point of it. It's just biology.

It's notabout the way you think, what you want, how you feel.

I don't get how people can't just use their imagination about this.

Say you did wake up tomorrow with a penis. Apart from the novelty, obviously, try thinking about the way you would know you weren't a man. And you can't rely on science fiction, like, yesterday I was a woman.

How would you actually know?

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 15:24

@lechiffre55

My topic suggestions aside from the obvious toilet prisons & sports.

Trans widows and children

Trans rights/lack of rights

Transing children

Lesbians and trans. Dating and definitions.

The financial beneficiaries/money side of it

Co-morbid/mental health struggles

Internalised homophobia

TRA tactics

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 28/04/2023 15:29

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:41

Hi @ArabeIIaScott - we don't allow derailing on any of our threads, and encourage participants on a thread to either post about the topic being discussed or start a new thread.

I have been in very very very many threads that have started on one subject and are on a completely different subject by the end

many threads are started for example about how rubbish labour are at the moment and about 10 posts in it turns into how awful the tories are, these posts and threads are allowed to stand

I could probably think of more examples it happens every time and is especially noticeable on FWR threads, so recently a thread started as a support thread for a victim of sexual abuse was derailed completely….this to was allowed to stand

there are prolific derailers who appear regularly on threads and we are constantly told that threads, discussions and chats evolve

MNHQ may well feel that they don’t allow derailing…but they do

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 15:29

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I'd love to take a stab at answering your questions, but I am sensing that you are only looking for certain answers. However, in the spirit of good faith:

Having a vagina is the result of being a woman. It's not that one is a woman, therefore one gets a vagina.

Datun · 28/04/2023 15:31

I don't suppose ImaniMumsnet has read any of the thread, or knows that the OP has been offering a debate and then complaining when people give it to her.

She won't have read the background to any of it, or context, she will just be responding to reports.

Which I should imagine are very much along the lines of, "as you can see from my opening post, I'm trying to have a debate, and all they're doing is spamming the thread with recipes, I thought this was supposed to be welcoming place for people like meee."

And now everyone on the thread, including all the dozens of lurkers are getting another lesson on how tranactivism is responsible for recruiting thousands of women into the gender critical movement (for want of a better term).

I wish someone cleverer than me could explain the phenomenon of how transactivists are incapable of understanding why they are constantly shooting themselves in the foot.

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 15:32

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha.

It's a shame you see it as a 'gotcha' question. To me it gets to the very heart of the debate. If you say you think 'transwomen should be treated like women' but then refuse to define what 'woman' means, how can we continue the conversation?

I suspect people who say this don't actually mean 'treated like a woman'. I suspect what they actually mean is allowed to force others to see them as women, and admit them to any and all women's spaces.

When you say 'if I woke up with a penis', do you mean if you woke up with a man's body rather than a woman's? Or just a penis attached to an otherwise female body? I'm not really sure what your point is here. How does that move the conversation forwards?

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 15:32

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 14:59

OP I hope you haven’t been demoralised by what’s happened to your thread. I also think having these discussions in a trans inclusive way is important and useful. It really is frustrating to want to have a nuanced conversation about sex and gender and the different ways our identities are formed and how they may be influenced by a combination of biology and society and how that process may not be the same for everyone and instead having to wade through 20 pages of ‘man is not woman, end of discussion’

i think ‘what is a woman’ could actually be a very interesting question to ask if it wasn’t just being used as a gotcha. Is my experience as a woman totally dependent on my having a vagina? If I woke up with a penis one morning but with nothing else about my personality changed, would that change my identity or would I still feel like I was a woman? If I was never taught as a child ‘you are a girl and here’s what that means’ how would that affect my identity?

I think it’s also really worth actually researching what exactly are the advantages and disadvantages between the sexes, and how are they affected by different levels of transition (instead of just taking it as a foregone conclusion that men are superior to women at sports). Also how are they affected by other variables - height, weight, body type, fat content, training… and are these differences still as stark at the extreme ends, not just the averages. Is there any overlap and what does that mean?

I don’t have any answers to these questions, but I think it would be interesting to hear some different perspectives on these questions - as you say only from people who want to talk in good faith and not just as a transphobic gotcha

Spot the poster who hasn't bothered to READ THE THREAD.

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 15:37

@SpookyFBI And if you're genuinely confused about the sporting differences between the sexes, please see Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles), Jon Pike (@runthinkwrite) and Ross Tucker (@Scienceofsport) on Twitter.

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 15:39

Datun · 28/04/2023 15:31

I don't suppose ImaniMumsnet has read any of the thread, or knows that the OP has been offering a debate and then complaining when people give it to her.

She won't have read the background to any of it, or context, she will just be responding to reports.

Which I should imagine are very much along the lines of, "as you can see from my opening post, I'm trying to have a debate, and all they're doing is spamming the thread with recipes, I thought this was supposed to be welcoming place for people like meee."

And now everyone on the thread, including all the dozens of lurkers are getting another lesson on how tranactivism is responsible for recruiting thousands of women into the gender critical movement (for want of a better term).

I wish someone cleverer than me could explain the phenomenon of how transactivists are incapable of understanding why they are constantly shooting themselves in the foot.

Absolutely this!

I read the op saw it was very long so skimmed. did a big long post then while I waited for response (which never came) I read the whole thread and saw exactly what you say. But it's a lot to read and the temptation to skim and just read the op comments to see what's been covered already is strong

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 15:41

Nellodee · 28/04/2023 15:10

Spooky FBI, many of us have researched those issues in great depth and it’s why we’re no longer undecided. If you only want undecided people to join in, unfortunately that means you’re going to have to do your own research.

You’ve researched how identity has formed in a person’s mind? I’m genuinely interested to know your findings, and how you went about conducting this research.

I’m actually not being sarcastic here if you actually have done real scientific research into this and not just a google search because I think this would be a fascinating topic to learn about.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 15:42

How 'identity' is formed? What do you mean by identity, SpookyFBI?

WarriorN · 28/04/2023 15:46

@SpookyFBI posters have been discussing those questions at length in good faith for many years here.

Nobody is simply "being a bigot." Mn deletes such posts if they are.

Thousands of posts linked to scientific studies
.

SpookyFBI · 28/04/2023 15:52

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 15:42

How 'identity' is formed? What do you mean by identity, SpookyFBI?

Who I am as a person. My inner life. How I see myself. How I might answer the question ‘who am I?’

ok wow I’ve got lots of responses and it’s quarter to 11pm and I’ve got a busy day tomorrow so I don’t think I’ll be able to respond for a while. Please don’t take my absence as disinterest, I just wish mumsnet would go a bit slower! Hopefully I’ll be able to respond in a few days.

Grammarnut · 28/04/2023 15:53

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:43

Why do you ask? What does it mean to you?

Because a definition of woman which relies on anything but biology is likely to rely on stereotypes. I am not a woman because I wear skirts or stockings (both - tights are unhealthy) but because of my biology, my ability to bear children, which has caused me to be discriminated against all my life. That's why.

Beowulfa · 28/04/2023 16:05

I wonder how many lurkers have been convinced by the OP's reasoned discussion and understanding of "good faith"? They might also be wondering why derailing on this particular forum warrants such prompt moderation.

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 16:05

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 14:11

Crikey! That all sounds familiar!

Show quote history

It’ll just be a never ending self fulfilling pathetic circle until they finally break out of it sadly. This is one of those situations where the saying “Until you learn the lesson the lesson will keep repeating itself.” fits perfectly.

They will continue to feel oppressed because the truth is they keep stifling healthy discussion and debate. They frustrate the people with different view points. Those people lash out and make them feel bullied and oppressed. This will make them feel like their “struggle” is valid and real. It’s the mean alt right coming for me! This is who they really are! They take screen shots or cry to their friends. “Why can’t we have a good faith discussion?”

Rinse repeat.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 28/04/2023 16:07

Yes, clothes are irrelevant. Unless a person is still at an age when they have to wear a school uniform, then any garment they wish to wear is theirs for the choosing, providing it follows society's basic rules of covering 'private' parts, does not carry offensive slogans, and, in a workplace setting, ensures appropriate health and safety protection.

There are no arguments in favour of or against genderism in which clothes are a factor.

Weallgottachangesometime · 28/04/2023 16:11

I’m genuinely disappointed I didn’t get an answer to my question.

I honestly can’t understand how op can write reams about gender stereo types being put on people whilst also seemingly agreeing with “women” as a socially constructed idea. Doesn’t that just mean we’ve started using the stereo types as the definitions.