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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 13:44

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:41

Hi @ArabeIIaScott - we don't allow derailing on any of our threads, and encourage participants on a thread to either post about the topic being discussed or start a new thread.

With respect Imani, this is a rule applied only to women speaking for women's equality, and in my experience is not fairly or equally applied.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:48

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:41

Hi @ArabeIIaScott - we don't allow derailing on any of our threads, and encourage participants on a thread to either post about the topic being discussed or start a new thread.

Crikey

no tangents? No ‘that reminds mes’?

no thread is ever allowed to twist and turn ever again?

or is it only when the OP is so thin skinned that anyone anywhere sharing a joke feels like a personal dig to them?

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 28/04/2023 13:49

Apparently, because the OP is virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale. 🙄

My little sister, when she was about 3, watched my Dad playing Toad of Toad Hall and had hysterics when Toad was sentenced to 20 years in prison. “Don’t send my Daddy to prison!” She had to be taken out. (Out of the theatre, I mean, not gunned down.)

I love this. Especially the clarification. 😆

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 13:49

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:34

Hi everyone,

please can there be no derailing on this thread i.e. posting about food recipes? We've deleted some posts already and will be suspending accounts that continue to derail. Please feel free to get in touch if you'd like to chat about anything.

Suspending accounts for derailing about cake? Really Imani? Telling people to stop, yes but threatening suspension seems OTT.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 13:50

There have been biscuit suspensions before, iirc.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 13:51

Ok 19.55 onward yesterday most of one page is deleted. No idea now which posts have been zapped as not enough to put the deletions in context!

Odd that some stayed. Oh and it's most people's posts

Kucinghitam · 28/04/2023 13:52

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:48

Crikey

no tangents? No ‘that reminds mes’?

no thread is ever allowed to twist and turn ever again?

or is it only when the OP is so thin skinned that anyone anywhere sharing a joke feels like a personal dig to them?

Exactly.

If this is going to be a new rule for MN threads, I would expect clear guidelines about what exactly constitutes derailing, who gets to decide and that this should apply to the entire forum.

Otherwise it's fucking pandering bollocks for bollock panderers.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:52

I suspect that many of the threads in classics would be considered to have been ‘derailed’ under this bizarre new rule

<frets that I’m derailing the thread and will have my account suspended >

<wonders if responding to strange non sequiturs posted by MN staff is included in the new rule >

<disappears in a puff of anxiety >

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 13:54

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 10:24

That was a central argument of liberal feminism, I think.

Women should try to replicate men in everything, including taking part in 'the sexual revolution' by objectifying themselves.

Quite convincing, for a while. At least, I fell for it.

I remember about 5 years ago getting told off by some American and UK younger women for me pointing out that I didn't think that female pop performers who were overly sexualised and objectifying themselves were all that empowering for children and teenagers.

Astralitzia · 28/04/2023 13:54

nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 13:44

With respect Imani, this is a rule applied only to women speaking for women's equality, and in my experience is not fairly or equally applied.

No it isn't. People have trolled other threads and entire topics outside FWR by filling them up with cake-related posts and that wasn't allowed either.

If you're waiting for OP to return then just don't post. You're not in a physical waiting room which you're not allowed to leave. Just put your phone down or read a different thread.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 13:54

That's one way to derail the thread: be the thread post reporter! You don't have to say anything just press a button!

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:55

I wanted to post that I’d taken a screenshot of the cherry cake recipe and am going to make it for my DC for tea. But now I’m worrying that I will be suspended for making such a comment

is that really the atmosphere you’re going for Imani?

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 13:55

Ofcourseshecan · 28/04/2023 10:23

around 5 years ago I was very anti self id. Thankfully I had a brilliant person take the time to talk to me non-judgmentally and patiently and eventually I realised all my questions had been answered and all I was left with was "Thats not common sense " and as an educated woman I recognised that is not good sense and so I thought hard and i recognised my misgivings came from a fear of the other.

OP, thanks for your detailed replies. I have read them all carefully, and thought about them, looking for the answers you mentioned above. You raise many interesting points, but not what I can see as answers.

So maybe you and I were asking different questions?

Mine would be along the lines of:

How can men be women? I used to believe that a communion wafer was the body and blood of Jesus, but I don’t now. Now I don’t accept that something that seems untrue is in fact true, without strong evidence that my perceptions are wrong.

Statistics show that men commit most violence and almost all sexual assaults. With self-ID, what is there to stop every sex offender pretending to be trans in order to gain access to women and children?

Having experienced sexual assaults and harassment, why should I risk my safety and ignore my justifiable fear of being in a confined space with a strange man?

I’ve taken time and effort to ask genuine questions. I really would like to know if you received convincing answers to these.

If not, what were your questions?

Thank you.

.

I would like to hear the answers to your questions too Ofcourse.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 13:57

Astralitzia · 28/04/2023 13:54

No it isn't. People have trolled other threads and entire topics outside FWR by filling them up with cake-related posts and that wasn't allowed either.

If you're waiting for OP to return then just don't post. You're not in a physical waiting room which you're not allowed to leave. Just put your phone down or read a different thread.

You've presumably missed the latter part of the thread that's full of intelligent thoughtful posts about democracy, the law, sex and gender - all since the OP flounced.

Igneococcus · 28/04/2023 13:58

Who has been suspended?

Astralitzia · 28/04/2023 13:59

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 13:57

You've presumably missed the latter part of the thread that's full of intelligent thoughtful posts about democracy, the law, sex and gender - all since the OP flounced.

No, I've read the whole thread. There is a lot of intelligent discussion, although I don't see that the OP has flounced just yet. There's also an awful lot of off-topic derailing going on deliberately.

There was a kerfuffle in the last couple of months about the Sex topic and people doing the same there. I don't frequent the Sex topic but it was made pretty clear that sort of thing isn't allowed.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 13:59

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:55

I wanted to post that I’d taken a screenshot of the cherry cake recipe and am going to make it for my DC for tea. But now I’m worrying that I will be suspended for making such a comment

is that really the atmosphere you’re going for Imani?

I mean are we really going back to dictating not only what words women use but now when where and the order in which we formulate them that we choose to use the ones we still have left get monitored as well. That's not exactly a way to foster relations with your users is it.

And if this is a derail well the derailer this time was mumsnet they'll have to delete themselves as well.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 28/04/2023 13:59

I’m reminded of the late Sir Terry Pratchett’s description of a character as the sort of person who always took laughter personally’

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 28/04/2023 14:00

I'm glad I copied and saved the cake recipe before the ban descended. Thanks for it.

however, on topic.

The thing the XX chromosomes women on this thread have in common isn't some secret, dog-whistle enabled, private party set-up. It's the experience of living lives in a female body, and all the things, good and bad, that go with that.

US cop shows have various story ideas that crop up repeatedly - bank robberies and kidnaps and drug deals, obviously, but there's one particularly relevant to this. The indignation felt by military veterans about stolen valor.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Stolen%20Valor

Being a woman takes courage and persistence. None of us volunteered for that, and some of us get damaged or even broken, but it's ours. Someone turning up in a uniform they never served in, wearing medals they didn't earn, and demanding to be referred to by a rank not theirs is not acceptable to people who did the hard graft.

Same for women. We are not a costume opportunity.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 14:01

NotTerfNorCis · 28/04/2023 11:11

Interesting that the fundamental question, 'what actually is a woman', is being dismissed as a dog whistle. I've seen TRAs do the same before. They try to make difficult questions unaskable.

It is a very transparent tactic though NotTerf.

I am always surprised to see the phrase 'dog whistle' used. It seems to mean, 'I cannot answer that question without showing my weak argument, I will just go straight for the denigrating attack!'

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 14:02

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 13:02

I actually want the counter argument to improve.

Why?

Because a decent argument suggests there is substance to what changes are being imposed seemingly without proper due diligence.

But given the lack of that in politics in the last decade, I am cynical about that happening.

Politics has become polarised in many aspects between logical, rational, practical and ultimately enforcable ideas and laws versus this emotional screeching about how things are bad and we must change things, all opposition needs closing down through authoritarian means with this complete disregard as to how these ideas are workable in the real world.

The OP demonstrated exactly that.

These appeals to emotional are wrapped up in attempts to blackmail and shame and otherwise bully none believers who, if they do not comply, should pay the price in terms of their livelihoods and social standing. It's has echoes of a cultural purge in various institutions. Historically it looks incredibly like the 'red scare' in US politics with similar patterns of behaviour.

This is not how liberal democracy works.

Liberal democracy has to encourage engagement. The rules of that engagement are that nothing is off limits for discussion because taboo issues being overlooked don't go away. They fester. And as a result get worse until they are eventually dealt with.

The problem in framing the question of 'what is a woman' as a dog whistle is it doesn't resolve the law as it now stands. It falls apart. This leads to legal cases being launched to solve practical problems because the politicians were sleeping on the job and didn't write proper definitions which were coherent and workable. This creates legal precedents which the politicians may not actually like, but since judges have to use logic and rational and create judgements which can be explained this weakens the politicians argument.

This leads to accusations that judges are interfering in politics. This isn't true. Judges are the backstop when politicians have failed to identify and preemptively deal with issues and conflicts.

Of course this leads to a situation where the only place the debate can head is to a clarification of the Equality Act and the purpose of the Equality Act. Judges can not change the Equality Act. They can only rule based on the presumed principles and aims of the law. The law is written because it was identified that women (and other minorities) were at a disadvantage to men. The aim of the law was to provide protections to stop discrimination. The Act states both sex and those who have had gender reassignment (or are undergoing it) as two distinct but separate things. It recognises that both groups have disadvantages and thus both need protections. It also identified a conflict within this, where single sex exemptions should be applied because gender reassignment imposed negative impacts on women.

This in turn leaves us with this issue whereby the law is still fuzzy but is saying in effect transwomen are not women but can be treated as women in some situations but not all.

This in turn leads to the questions about why this was done in the first place.

And why now, there are ambitions and attempts to change this both lawfully and via unlawful means.

This makes it even more of an essential question to be asking - 'what is a women?' and 'why do women have single sex exemptions?' and 'why should we overturn the protections the law has provided?'

There is a legitimate debate to be had here about why women need to lose rights and protections they should have in principle (but are finding they often don't have in practice). All whilst transwomen (males) are saying they have the most vulnerable in society despite a lack of evidence to demonstrate this and create a coherent argument about why single sex provision should be abolished and why this action wouldnt have a massive negative impact on women - remembering that the law was written understanding of the principle that sex mattered in law because women were are a disadvantage and this was demonstrable.

The law was written on the principle of providing balance and equity in society that didn't otherwise exist because of prejudgices and inherent social power / dominance.

In saying that being a woman is indefinable you immediately remove all these protections and all the principles upon what the Equality Act was built.

A judge isn't going to be able to rule against that, without reason and argument. Saying 'be kind' to women isn't sufficient if women can demonstrate disadvantage and harms through information and data which is observable.

This throws this back to politicians. Politicians then have to decide whether to change the law or not. They can do this without public consent. But this risks public backlash without it. Public backlash could cost them their seat, so they have to be mindful of the public.

Because ultimately the law is written by politicians on behalf of the public with public approval. And the law is enforced by judges who have to interpret the principles behind the law and the purpose the law is intended for.

There is no dog whistle in this process. It is a purely functional one that needs clear definitions to create this equitable balance.

It's legitimate for interest groups who risk losing protections to ask for clarification of what their rights currently are and who they apply to (and who they don't). Saying 'what is a woman?' is about establishing who those protections within law extend to and where others might want to take the law in the future.

Clarification of the Equality Act which both the Conservatives and Labour seemingly both support is about this question of 'what is a woman?' So both are legitimising and effectively asking for discussion on the subject of 'what is a woman?'. Neither are saying it's a dog whistle because there is a recognition that the courts will end up with potential messy rulings on this which could lead to various institutions and organisations being left in a vulnerable position of the law being unfit for purposes and them being left high and dry and exposed to the risk of further legal actions needing to be taken to resolve conflicts. They are starting to realise that they can't continue to fudge this issue because it will and is coming to a head in our highest courts.

This is all about fairness and fairness in the eyes of the law. If the public don't feel a law is fair in sufficient numbers you start to see acts of civil disobedience and dissent. This manifests in conflict. Conflict which cant be ignored by politicians.

And round and round we go.

This is why the question is unavoidable no matter how much TRAs want to call it a dog whistle. It is completely central to the law.

And what REALLY pisses me off is the leader of the opposition was previously a human rights lawyer who fucking knows this and STILL is insisting on using emotional appeals to authority and refusing to come up with a workable legal definition.

RTB's post above is precisely the type of intelligent, nuanced and thoughtful post that some would like to censor. I'm repeating it because it summarises the threat to democracy that's currently happening and evidenced by the nature of the OP's approach.

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 14:02

Can we get off the Marie Antoinette cake now? Actually that's a good thread idea which can include cake.

The only reason I ended up on here was because after Helen Steel was attacked in 2017 at the London Anarchist Bookfair, this was the ONLY place I could find on the internet that offered a different perspective which allowed me to process my confusion around my previous "be kind" stance and the obvious wrongness of HS being turned on in the way that she was.

Me too.

As someone that always knew transexuals, the idea that we have to BELIEVE is VERY VERY recent.

The angry attacks on women that were not updated with this new mandatory beleif should be discussed here, it's an imperative.

What it's made very clear to me is that we knew in the decades that sexism was fading, was that the drivers FOR transexualism were sexist and homophobic.

And yet the older generation of trans activists that shaped the mandatory beleif are FROM that generation steeped in sexism.

It seems to me that the zoomer generation (and the older generations that are listening to them) that didn't grow up in overtly sexist times cannot grasp this sexist history of transexual identity.

I had this very conversation last week with an old friend whose young DS had educated her, and yet missed out a few decades of understanding by going straight to the weird idea that male and female is always sexist proposition.

It's not been done in good faith has it? That's why good faith argument is so hard. We are trying to apply 21st century attitudes to a 20th century position on transexualism.

There is a huge lag between the position women have reached and the position transwomen are trying to sell us.

PorcelinaV · 28/04/2023 14:10

Astralitzia · 28/04/2023 13:59

No, I've read the whole thread. There is a lot of intelligent discussion, although I don't see that the OP has flounced just yet. There's also an awful lot of off-topic derailing going on deliberately.

There was a kerfuffle in the last couple of months about the Sex topic and people doing the same there. I don't frequent the Sex topic but it was made pretty clear that sort of thing isn't allowed.

They left back on page 17.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 14:11

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 12:48

@ArabeIIaScott I’m a reformed staunch liberal and I used to feel that way too. Then I discovered when you don’t carry views that have trained you like a dog to become immediately defensive and outraged that there are lots of people in the world who can have a calm discussion while disagreeing with each other. It was such a feeling of relief and a lot of my mental health problems grew much smaller.

I’m sorry but liberals literally trained me to do the following when faced with disagreement.

  1. Assume: assume they are alt right. Assume they are white, male, straight, cisgendered. Probably christian. Unless otherwise stated. They are privileged. They don’t know it’s impossible for them to know.
  2. Name call and denounce: Call them bigots. Call them transphobes. Call them racist. Call them privileged. Accuse them of being alt right.
  3. Remove the context: Take their statements out of context. Accuse them of saying things that you know deep down they didn’t actually mean. Insist that that is actually what they meant even when they argue that was not the point. This is how ‘everyone’ does it. This is how we avoid ever getting to the actual depth of the argument. This is why conservatives and centrists are always so frustrated with us. This is why we feel really defensive and angry. Because we never actually give them a chance to get to the point of what they are trying to say.
  4. Stonewall them: As soon as it is obvious that they are winning the argument, the majority of others are agreeing with them and coming to their aid, or they simply refuse to change their tune then the next step is to refuse to have the conversation and possibly report them or block them. Then we don’t have to think about them anymore and feel better. After all they were being huge bigots and deserved it right?

When I broke free from the chains of identity politics and gender politics I stopped feeling this way and found out that I was wrong about a lot of people and was in awe that all the people I was told are evil alt right people actually had very nuanced views and were having very calm, respectful and civil discussions about all kinds of complicated issues.

Crikey! That all sounds familiar!

JolyGoodBloviator · 28/04/2023 14:19

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 14:01

It is a very transparent tactic though NotTerf.

I am always surprised to see the phrase 'dog whistle' used. It seems to mean, 'I cannot answer that question without showing my weak argument, I will just go straight for the denigrating attack!'

The phrase ‘dog whistle’ appears to have itself become a ‘dog whistle’ - whenever I’ve seen it used of late it usually means something like ‘I don’t have an answer for this question/response to this statement so I am going to pretend that only a fascist would ask it/state it’.

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