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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Ofcourseshecan · 28/04/2023 12:44

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 22:32

@WeeBisom

I absolutely will answer but in short (very short) & then I'm off for the evening

Womanhood is a social construct. So anyone in society that feels that constraint or feels that they don't fit in the box that society has placed upon them by calling them boys or girls or men or women is welcome to the word. That's what a woman is.
Anyone who says they are a woman is.
And yes I would like to remove any distinction between the sexes. It's never done females any good.

Gender is man made for sure. So is a table, I still ate my dinner off mine an hour ago. It's still real and definable and impossible to deny imho.

Biological sex is real but all the stuff that's piled on re restrictions, femininity, masculinity, and so on is a mistaken and restrictive way to build society. Places people with rules and restrictions and there are punishments for stepping outside the rules.

Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense.

We could just as easily be making our society about another bodily part. Height for example. It's just as random (and wrong)

There are of course mountains to climb to move away from hegemonic masculinity but recognising that some
Already have is a good start.

I also believe we should not belittle minorities in word or deed.

Womanhood is a social construct. So ... anyone who says they are a woman is

No, this is where I think you've gone wrong, OP. I have read all your posts in detail, and with much thought.

'Femininity' (high heels, hair-flicking etc) is a social construct. And women's traditional roles are a social construct, including all the rules and restrictions put on women.

But 'womanhood', meaning being a woman, is simply biological fact.

I can identify as a transman, if I like. I live in cargo pants, socks and flat ankle-boots (which in terms of femininity presumably makes me a man from the waist down). But if I had become pregnant when I was raped, I couldn't have identified out of that. And I doubt if he would have apologised and walked off without raping me if I had explained that I was a transman.

So if 'womanhood is a social construct' is the backbone of your argument, OP, it falls at the first fence.

Sorry if everyone else has pointed this out 50 times already.

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 12:48

@ArabeIIaScott I’m a reformed staunch liberal and I used to feel that way too. Then I discovered when you don’t carry views that have trained you like a dog to become immediately defensive and outraged that there are lots of people in the world who can have a calm discussion while disagreeing with each other. It was such a feeling of relief and a lot of my mental health problems grew much smaller.

I’m sorry but liberals literally trained me to do the following when faced with disagreement.

  1. Assume: assume they are alt right. Assume they are white, male, straight, cisgendered. Probably christian. Unless otherwise stated. They are privileged. They don’t know it’s impossible for them to know.
  2. Name call and denounce: Call them bigots. Call them transphobes. Call them racist. Call them privileged. Accuse them of being alt right.
  3. Remove the context: Take their statements out of context. Accuse them of saying things that you know deep down they didn’t actually mean. Insist that that is actually what they meant even when they argue that was not the point. This is how ‘everyone’ does it. This is how we avoid ever getting to the actual depth of the argument. This is why conservatives and centrists are always so frustrated with us. This is why we feel really defensive and angry. Because we never actually give them a chance to get to the point of what they are trying to say.
  4. Stonewall them: As soon as it is obvious that they are winning the argument, the majority of others are agreeing with them and coming to their aid, or they simply refuse to change their tune then the next step is to refuse to have the conversation and possibly report them or block them. Then we don’t have to think about them anymore and feel better. After all they were being huge bigots and deserved it right?

When I broke free from the chains of identity politics and gender politics I stopped feeling this way and found out that I was wrong about a lot of people and was in awe that all the people I was told are evil alt right people actually had very nuanced views and were having very calm, respectful and civil discussions about all kinds of complicated issues.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 12:49

Wonderful posts exploring so much. What a stark contrast to the mean spirited performance from the OP.

Flowers for everyone.

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 12:52

My point is that if you feel like politics is always an uncivil terrible discussion it’s quite possible that it is you creating that environment because I have civil political conversations all the time now. It’s time to reflect on yourself.

BonfireLady · 28/04/2023 13:01

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 12:49

Wonderful posts exploring so much. What a stark contrast to the mean spirited performance from the OP.

Flowers for everyone.

Totally agree 💐

I never raise the topic of gender identity in our house (because of my other daughter's recent confusion over it all in relation to her autism) but instead, I explore it gently whenever it comes up. Last time it was off the back of them both saying that JKR was evil. I helped them see that she had said nothing transphobic but both of them fully believed that transwomen are women if they say they are.

Today I had the confidence to open up the conversation again when my daughter was talking about something very tangibly related to self ID.

At the end of it she said that she's happy to see a transwomen as a woman if it helps that person feel comfortable but "obviously I know it's a man". We both then explored why self ID taking on board that belief as fact was a very bad idea.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 13:02

MavisMcMinty · 28/04/2023 12:10

You people are amazing, thank you. I’ve learnt so much from you all. Your posts compared with those of the OP are so inspiring and insightful.

Very much looking forward to the fine feminists of MN “steelmanning” the TRA arguments, I truly hope @beachcitygirl lurks (silently) on there, if only to improve their own argument.

I actually want the counter argument to improve.

Why?

Because a decent argument suggests there is substance to what changes are being imposed seemingly without proper due diligence.

But given the lack of that in politics in the last decade, I am cynical about that happening.

Politics has become polarised in many aspects between logical, rational, practical and ultimately enforcable ideas and laws versus this emotional screeching about how things are bad and we must change things, all opposition needs closing down through authoritarian means with this complete disregard as to how these ideas are workable in the real world.

The OP demonstrated exactly that.

These appeals to emotional are wrapped up in attempts to blackmail and shame and otherwise bully none believers who, if they do not comply, should pay the price in terms of their livelihoods and social standing. It's has echoes of a cultural purge in various institutions. Historically it looks incredibly like the 'red scare' in US politics with similar patterns of behaviour.

This is not how liberal democracy works.

Liberal democracy has to encourage engagement. The rules of that engagement are that nothing is off limits for discussion because taboo issues being overlooked don't go away. They fester. And as a result get worse until they are eventually dealt with.

The problem in framing the question of 'what is a woman' as a dog whistle is it doesn't resolve the law as it now stands. It falls apart. This leads to legal cases being launched to solve practical problems because the politicians were sleeping on the job and didn't write proper definitions which were coherent and workable. This creates legal precedents which the politicians may not actually like, but since judges have to use logic and rational and create judgements which can be explained this weakens the politicians argument.

This leads to accusations that judges are interfering in politics. This isn't true. Judges are the backstop when politicians have failed to identify and preemptively deal with issues and conflicts.

Of course this leads to a situation where the only place the debate can head is to a clarification of the Equality Act and the purpose of the Equality Act. Judges can not change the Equality Act. They can only rule based on the presumed principles and aims of the law. The law is written because it was identified that women (and other minorities) were at a disadvantage to men. The aim of the law was to provide protections to stop discrimination. The Act states both sex and those who have had gender reassignment (or are undergoing it) as two distinct but separate things. It recognises that both groups have disadvantages and thus both need protections. It also identified a conflict within this, where single sex exemptions should be applied because gender reassignment imposed negative impacts on women.

This in turn leaves us with this issue whereby the law is still fuzzy but is saying in effect transwomen are not women but can be treated as women in some situations but not all.

This in turn leads to the questions about why this was done in the first place.

And why now, there are ambitions and attempts to change this both lawfully and via unlawful means.

This makes it even more of an essential question to be asking - 'what is a women?' and 'why do women have single sex exemptions?' and 'why should we overturn the protections the law has provided?'

There is a legitimate debate to be had here about why women need to lose rights and protections they should have in principle (but are finding they often don't have in practice). All whilst transwomen (males) are saying they have the most vulnerable in society despite a lack of evidence to demonstrate this and create a coherent argument about why single sex provision should be abolished and why this action wouldnt have a massive negative impact on women - remembering that the law was written understanding of the principle that sex mattered in law because women were are a disadvantage and this was demonstrable.

The law was written on the principle of providing balance and equity in society that didn't otherwise exist because of prejudgices and inherent social power / dominance.

In saying that being a woman is indefinable you immediately remove all these protections and all the principles upon what the Equality Act was built.

A judge isn't going to be able to rule against that, without reason and argument. Saying 'be kind' to women isn't sufficient if women can demonstrate disadvantage and harms through information and data which is observable.

This throws this back to politicians. Politicians then have to decide whether to change the law or not. They can do this without public consent. But this risks public backlash without it. Public backlash could cost them their seat, so they have to be mindful of the public.

Because ultimately the law is written by politicians on behalf of the public with public approval. And the law is enforced by judges who have to interpret the principles behind the law and the purpose the law is intended for.

There is no dog whistle in this process. It is a purely functional one that needs clear definitions to create this equitable balance.

It's legitimate for interest groups who risk losing protections to ask for clarification of what their rights currently are and who they apply to (and who they don't). Saying 'what is a woman?' is about establishing who those protections within law extend to and where others might want to take the law in the future.

Clarification of the Equality Act which both the Conservatives and Labour seemingly both support is about this question of 'what is a woman?' So both are legitimising and effectively asking for discussion on the subject of 'what is a woman?'. Neither are saying it's a dog whistle because there is a recognition that the courts will end up with potential messy rulings on this which could lead to various institutions and organisations being left in a vulnerable position of the law being unfit for purposes and them being left high and dry and exposed to the risk of further legal actions needing to be taken to resolve conflicts. They are starting to realise that they can't continue to fudge this issue because it will and is coming to a head in our highest courts.

This is all about fairness and fairness in the eyes of the law. If the public don't feel a law is fair in sufficient numbers you start to see acts of civil disobedience and dissent. This manifests in conflict. Conflict which cant be ignored by politicians.

And round and round we go.

This is why the question is unavoidable no matter how much TRAs want to call it a dog whistle. It is completely central to the law.

And what REALLY pisses me off is the leader of the opposition was previously a human rights lawyer who fucking knows this and STILL is insisting on using emotional appeals to authority and refusing to come up with a workable legal definition.

CherryYoga · 28/04/2023 13:03

Oh right and if they aren’t “privileged” focus on the parts of them that are privileged. If for example it’s a white woman who is anti feminist. Well first off she’s got white privilege and that’s her first problem. Second she OBVIOUSLY has internalized misogyny. She hates herself! That’s the only possible explanation! No female in her right mind is anti feminist. 😫 Her opinion is now null and void. Maybe she was taught to hate her womenhood by her white father? WHO KNOWS?

Black person who disagrees with black lives matter? Internalized racism. Bam. Opinion null and void. Don’t forget they have cis male privilege! Ugh cis men I swear.

TheSingingBean · 28/04/2023 13:07

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 12:30

And I'm not excusing insults or attacks, btw, just trying to explain some of the reasons these threads so often follow a pattern.

'Good faith' is tricky when posters don't trust each other. I'm not sure how to get around that, tbh.

How to neutralise some of the emotion, and lay ground rules that allow civil discourse but allow for open debate.

I agree with you Arabella, and with your post at 12:27.

I'm always interested when a poster with an alternative view wants to engage with the discussions, and when it (inevitably) descends into a scrap I'm disappointed.

At the risk of being told I'm trying to police women's language I regret that it seems impossible to discuss without getting pretty shouty.

I get it. I'm angry, sometimes raging - I had a sleepless night this week after I made the mistake of watching a clip of LOJ 'explaining' to a woman why males should be accepted in women's refuges. The fury I felt listening to him left me feeling physically sick.

But I also want to understand why people who think differently to me hold the views they do. I won't pretend I don't hope they'll change their minds, but I think there must be ways of persuading people with dispassionate and well-reasoned argument rather than the tit-for-tat accusations of ranting and rudeness.

This is not aimed at any one poster on this thread, just a general observation about the tone.

Signalbox · 28/04/2023 13:07

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 12:30

And I'm not excusing insults or attacks, btw, just trying to explain some of the reasons these threads so often follow a pattern.

'Good faith' is tricky when posters don't trust each other. I'm not sure how to get around that, tbh.

How to neutralise some of the emotion, and lay ground rules that allow civil discourse but allow for open debate.

How to neutralise some of the emotion, and lay ground rules that allow civil discourse but allow for open debate.

This is tricky. I guess that Mumsnet is one of the only open forums on the internet that has consistently refused to censor feminists (bar the few rules in place). So all the women who believe that sex is real and matters and want to discuss this end up here. The only reason I ended up on here was because after Helen Steel was attacked in 2017 at the London Anarchist Bookfair, this was the ONLY place I could find on the internet that offered a different perspective which allowed me to process my confusion around my previous "be kind" stance and the obvious wrongness of HS being turned on in the way that she was. MN isn't really an echo chamber because everywhere else on the internet is (was) pro trans activism (perhaps the pendulum has started to swing slightly the other way now though). So yes it's definitely going to be tough for a trans activist to come and start a thread in a space where most women strongly disagree with what they have to say but I do think if OP's op had been "genuinely... in good faith" she/he would probably have received a much less reactive welcome.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 13:14

TheSingingBean · 28/04/2023 13:07

I agree with you Arabella, and with your post at 12:27.

I'm always interested when a poster with an alternative view wants to engage with the discussions, and when it (inevitably) descends into a scrap I'm disappointed.

At the risk of being told I'm trying to police women's language I regret that it seems impossible to discuss without getting pretty shouty.

I get it. I'm angry, sometimes raging - I had a sleepless night this week after I made the mistake of watching a clip of LOJ 'explaining' to a woman why males should be accepted in women's refuges. The fury I felt listening to him left me feeling physically sick.

But I also want to understand why people who think differently to me hold the views they do. I won't pretend I don't hope they'll change their minds, but I think there must be ways of persuading people with dispassionate and well-reasoned argument rather than the tit-for-tat accusations of ranting and rudeness.

This is not aimed at any one poster on this thread, just a general observation about the tone.

I'm done with 'trying to accommodate people in good faith debates' when there is no good faith.

It's just another way of telling women to be kind.

Debate or get off the pot.

If you can't cope with the level of that debate tough shit.

I'll let it bounce all the way back to the courts in that scenario.

nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 13:17

Someone brilliant put up a very thought provoking post this week about how identity politics is in a way like willing suspension of disbelief at the theatre. Everyone is in agreement to suspend disbelief for the cohesiveness of the group performance experience, and only an arse would be shouting out "that's not a real crown!" and "he's still breathing!" to destroy the performance's illusion and enjoyment for all.

The 'dog whistle' accusation is often code for 'you are raising an 'it's not a real crown' type point'. Because to discuss this ideology requires the buying into the ideology to the level where if you have not willingly suspended disbelief, you are the arse shouting out in the theatre and the performance can't happen at all.

To women believing in reality, biology and the sex based needs of women that renders the discussion inaccessible. Because if someone will only discuss with you if you are fully signed up to agreement that men are women if they identify as such, or say you're 'dogwhistling' and walk away.

I've spent this morning thinking about the very interesting point of how I would dissect 'GC' arguments - although I'm not sure I would agree with that term any more than I'd call myself a feminist. One of the characteristics and confusions that activists tend to experience on FWR is the feeling that there is a cohesive 'group' with an ideology, a fixed set of beliefs signed up to, leaders all mutually agreed with, a club with everyone on the same page. When in fact there isnt at all, there's a lot of women with differing views and boundaries and beliefs and perspectives, who are able to agree on some things and not others. They are able to be interested in one thing someone said and (mostly) not come apart because the same person said something else that they didn't agree with and now they don't know what day it is or who they are. They are also women here mostly well informed about women's issues, about the underlying psychology and systems for helping women escape abusive relationships mentally as well as practically, and to deal with toxic family and extended family relationships because bread and butter (and cake) stuff around here.

They see the practical issues. They understand the situation not from airy neo liberal perspectives of gender and futuristic political utopian societies, they are focused on issues today. Now. And not seeing women harmed to further the interests of men because they can see it plainly in very sex based, binary terms.

I for one am baffled by all the never ending words about changing sex and sex isn't a thing when the actions and the demonstrated beliefs are very binary, sex based, and fixed in a belief that women are born with a biological duty to sacrifice for men. They must reframe their trauma. They must provide straight sex despite being lesbians. They must get over their needs and fears but never require men do the same. They must stop wanting privacy or believing they deserve it. They must accept that the occasional rape or attack is worth not making a man feel sad by hearing the word 'no'. And that women who don't do this are bad women. (Bad mothers. Bad wives.) It's all straight off the MiL relationship board posts.

And bottom line: I do not believe there is ever a point where a man becomes anything other than a man . Yes, I understand that's rude to some people. Yes, I understand that may hurt the feelings of a man. But that is not the point when women's rights and child safeguarding is at stake. It is not a reason to not speak.

Again, the fundamental sexism of 'you cannot discuss your harm because too upsetting for men....'

Those men are going to need to learn to cope, because that fundamental sex based duty? No. I won't be doing it.

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 13:22

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 09:57

@NotHavingIt Yes, absolutely. I had vaguely accepted that the sexes were 'different' but had not really thought about those physical differences deeply and their impact on behaviour/experience until transgenderism/gender identity ideology started to take real hold in society. It felt somehow anti-feminist to really acknowledge the differences between men and women. Now I understand that doing so is vital to fighting sexism and misogyny.

I think it's vital in many ways.

I saw a presentation given at Westminster, given by a group called 50 50 who clearly believe that the gender pay gap will be solved by 50 50 occupational representation and they illustrated this goal in their recommendations infographic with a little picture of a woman holding a shovel.

It was given by two men.

I have family members that have worked in physical labour, the shovel holding jobs, their whole lives and I despair at this middle class simplicity.

Physical labour is debilitating on bodies. In caring it takes it out of women to the point that it's age limited, you can't keep doing this for your whole working life, and the same goes for shovel holding jobs, the impact on the larger male body is equally as taxing. I have both in my family. Are we really expecting women to do that?

This idea that women being equal means we can exert the same amount of physical outputs in any job is part of the trite level of discourse over equality.

And yet this social justice organisation is presenting this at Westminster!

Sex matters in the type of work we can do beyond the desk based jobs of the middle classes and yet they are the people lecturing us on their barmy solutions.

TheSingingBean · 28/04/2023 13:23

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 13:14

I'm done with 'trying to accommodate people in good faith debates' when there is no good faith.

It's just another way of telling women to be kind.

Debate or get off the pot.

If you can't cope with the level of that debate tough shit.

I'll let it bounce all the way back to the courts in that scenario.

That's fine; I'm not suggesting anyone has to engage, accommodate, debate - whatever - with anyone.

I'm just agreeing with this comment from Arabella - How to neutralise some of the emotion, and lay ground rules that allow civil discourse but allow for open debate.

That's the question I'm interested in. Is it possible? I'm not sure it is.

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:34

Hi everyone,

please can there be no derailing on this thread i.e. posting about food recipes? We've deleted some posts already and will be suspending accounts that continue to derail. Please feel free to get in touch if you'd like to chat about anything.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 13:34

Someone brilliant put up a very thought provoking post this week about how identity politics is in a way like willing suspension of disbelief at the theatre. Everyone is in agreement to suspend disbelief for the cohesiveness of the group performance experience, and only an arse would be shouting out "that's not a real crown!" and "he's still breathing!" to destroy the performance's illusion and enjoyment for all.

The 'dog whistle' accusation is often code for 'you are raising an 'it's not a real crown' type point'. Because to discuss this ideology requires the buying into the ideology to the level where if you have not willingly suspended disbelief, you are the arse shouting out in the theatre and the performance can't happen at all.

Good analogy!

And women are not just here to be audience members. We also have rights, needs, and feelings.

HootyMcBooby76 · 28/04/2023 13:36

For me, there is no "belief" that a man can be a woman and anyone who says they believe it is either of the "be kind" mantra or is genuinely misled.

Some things are just facts.

It is not a "belief" that gravity exists, that the sky is blue, that water is wet. Science is not a belief.
You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are NOT entitled to your own facts.
The problem with this ideology is that it counters one of the biggest facts of life, the difference between the sexes.
Scientific proven principles of biology, physiology, evolution, DNA and chromosomes, anatomy, reproduction and more; these are the things you are being asked to ignore when stating that TWAW.
Of course it's utter nonsense, those things are FACT, words don't change them, feelings don't change them, laws don't change them.

Gender is a man made mash-up of whatever you want it to mean.
SEX is a fact.
The word "woman" equates to a female. Adult. Human.
A man cannot be a female. It is not a belief.

And that's the reason the TRA get so damn angry. They have no facts with which to prove their ideology. They have "feelings" and "beliefs".

Not enough, sorry.
Don't describe the laws of nature as a "belief".

Women are more than JUST their biology OP, but they are also defined by their biology.

nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 13:38

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:34

Hi everyone,

please can there be no derailing on this thread i.e. posting about food recipes? We've deleted some posts already and will be suspending accounts that continue to derail. Please feel free to get in touch if you'd like to chat about anything.

Fgs.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 13:38

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:34

Hi everyone,

please can there be no derailing on this thread i.e. posting about food recipes? We've deleted some posts already and will be suspending accounts that continue to derail. Please feel free to get in touch if you'd like to chat about anything.

Hi Imani.

Is this a general new rule? Is it just for this thread, or for this board? Clarification would be useful. Thanks.

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 13:40

ZombieMumEB · 28/04/2023 10:50

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

I have a question.
What is this young group of children protesting or reacting to? Or have they really gone barking mad?
https://twitter.com/RadioGenova/status/1651617685665447941?s=20

This reminds me of 1979 when we were punk!

I do enjoy seeing a splurge of irrational anarchy like this and each generation is going to have their own.

Will it have long lasting impact though, does it have the seeds of useful change within or is it just noise?

Punk hair grew out even if you still have your treasured vinyl records but surgery? Not so easy to live with for 70 odd years.

HootyMcBooby76 · 28/04/2023 13:40

Wow. I've seen a lot of threads being derailed across all the forums.
It's never warranted a special intervention by MNHQ before.

Why are the rules different for some discussions?
Clarification would be nice.

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:41

Hi @ArabeIIaScott - we don't allow derailing on any of our threads, and encourage participants on a thread to either post about the topic being discussed or start a new thread.

womenarehuman · 28/04/2023 13:41
Agents Dramatic Exit GIF by Apple TV+

Ahhhh.

Beowulfa · 28/04/2023 13:41

Obviously the OP would have explained how great self ID is if you wrong-type-of-feminists hadn't distracted her with all your cake-talk.

MavisMcMinty · 28/04/2023 13:43

Someone brilliant put up a very thought provoking post this week about how identity politics is in a way like willing suspension of disbelief at the theatre. Everyone is in agreement to suspend disbelief for the cohesiveness of the group performance experience, and only an arse would be shouting out "that's not a real crown!" and "he's still breathing!" to destroy the performance's illusion and enjoyment for all. @nilsmousehammer

Ha ha! I go to the theatre a lot and this made me laugh, imagining someone doing this. My little sister, when she was about 3, watched my Dad playing Toad of Toad Hall and had hysterics when Toad was sentenced to 20 years in prison. “Don’t send my Daddy to prison!” She had to be taken out. (Out of the theatre, I mean, not gunned down.)

nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 13:43

ImaniMumsnet · 28/04/2023 13:34

Hi everyone,

please can there be no derailing on this thread i.e. posting about food recipes? We've deleted some posts already and will be suspending accounts that continue to derail. Please feel free to get in touch if you'd like to chat about anything.

Imani I introduced the apparent sin of mentioning cake, in the intent of a pleasant chat to keep the thread going while waiting for the OP to return.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, bring on the scold's bridle. I'll say a few Hail Judith Butlers if that will help.

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