Caroline F - new arrest / harassment ?

[catsrus]

Caroline has just posted on twitter that the police were trying to force entry - WTF going on?

Three officers saying she has to go with them.

Three.

twitter.com/cf_farrow/status/1651514281471492096?s=46&t=rbPMHI1uvxUAiQC4E1EE3A

Dumbo12 · Today 12:20
Felix125, they were at one time routinely asked for.

When was this standard procedure - and where was the written?

Thelnebriati
Suspect's phone are routinely seized

It happened, I don't have access to police procedure papers. Please can you answer the second point I made, why were they asked for and what information was used from them?

"What are you doing here" innocent phrase but depending on tone, volume, body language it can come across as a pleasant friendly enquiry or can be threatening and menacing. We are telling you as women that in our interactions with the police thst on the whole the police come across when we are victims as threatening and menacing. That does not mean every single officer but it does mean a lot, you however are trying to tell us that our experiences can't happen. Do you ever ask yourself why women don't want to take rape accusations to court?

''Rape Crisis have received reports that defendants are not being treated to the “same level of scrutiny” as victims when it comes handing over their digital privacy.
''..in practice a blanket approach appears to be being taken to scrutinising all a victim or survivor’s personal data, including photos, messages and calls, regardless of whether or not it has any connection to the alleged crime or the alleged perpetrator.
“We are also being told by our member Rape Crisis Centres that in many cases suspects are not being subjected to the same level of scrutiny.
“In some cases, suspects’ phones aren’t even requested.

https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/in-the-news/why-are-police-asking-rape-victims-to-hand-over-their-phones/

Dumbo12
Will do - I'm sorting a car engine out for the rest of the day but will answer later on

"I say, I say, I say! Has a man been sealioning a support thread for a woman in distress and using it as a Police Procedure Puffery Project!"

"Oh they're walrus doin' that!"

It looks like things might be about to change for women reporting rapes to the police.

www.gov.uk/government/news/end-to-intrusive-fishing-expeditions-of-rape-victims-therapy-notes#:~:text=Victims%20of%20rape%20will%20no,today%20(15%20May%202023).

BaronessEllarawrosaurus
Of course - any innocent phrase will come across as threatening and menacing depending on tone, volume, body language.

I haven't said that 'your experiences' don't happen - I am very aware that they do and they should be brought to light and complained about.

Historically, the way rape victims/survivors were treat was horrendous. Did you know that historically we didn't even have a forensic examination suite and they were just taken to a hospital. All wrong and its changed.

So now it has changed - and victims/survivors are treat totally differently. I and my colleagues always work from total belief of the victim/survivor and their account can not be questioned. But we also don't put any pressures on them. if you don't agree with this method, then explain why you think its wrong?

I do ask myself the question why women don't want to take rape accusations to court? But I don't ask that directly of the victim/survivor. Its their choice and they make that choice. I will help them and answer any questions they ask, but I won't lie to them and i certainly won't put any pressure on them to try and increases our detection figures. I don't care about the current detection figures at that time - I just care about the victim/survivor in front of me.

Victims/survivors don't go to court for a whole host of reasons - mainly that they don't want to re-live the whole thing at court 6 months down the line - even with video links, special measures etc etc. But that is the judicial process that's in place - if you have an alternative to the court process then I am all ears.

Bosky
"I say, I say, I say! Has a man been sealioning a support thread for a woman in distress and using it as a Police Procedure Puffery Project!"
"Oh they're walrus doin' that!"

More examples of being talked down to and mocked because i am a man - yet I am the one being accused of it???

Dumbo12
It will depend on the enquiry

If the suspect raises a defence in their interview that there is specific evidence on the victim's phone that will exonerate them - then this will need to be investigated. We may have seized their phone, but we need to prove its come from the victim/survivor's phone and not just an associated SIM card that someone else has control of.

The police need to have an open & thorough investigation - so both sides must be examined - witness accounts, CCTV, defence statements, alibis etc etc

But we don't just routinely take the phones. We have no power to do so in any case. Suspect's phone can be seized under PACE 32/18, but not the victim/survivor's.

Brefugee
'phone dumps' are currently not admissible at court. They should be - and probably will be in the future. But for phone records to be admissible they need to go through the popper procedures and are subject to RIPA authorisation.

And instead of just calling me names and 'talking down at me' try and answer the points raised. This after all is a discussion forum.

Is it right that the police should be listening and believing what the victims/survivors/reporting person says?

This is an example, imo, of asking whether rape survivors should be listened to, in order to say ha! see, that's why we need to listen to the complainant in the Caroline Farrow case. You can't have it both ways yew no.

Tediously transparent set up.

He does this frequently.

He displays a shocking lack of nuance or proportionality again and again. Worrying if that's how he conducts his police work.

Felix that does not explain why women who were alleging rape were told that if they refused to sign the digital access forms, their case would be nfa'd. Saying that shouldn't have happened is not an adequate answer, because it did happen and it should not be up to victims to police the police.

Datun
So you're suggesting that we should only listen to reporting people in certain circumstance?

And if so when?

And to bring it back full circle - how did we know its the same person making the complaint in this current case against Caroline?

DerekFaker
"...shocking lack of nuance or proportionality..." when we know nothing about this current complaint, who made it, what it was etc etc. How am I lacking proportionality here? Most people on here are just 'assuming' its all related

Disclaimer - I am using 'we' to mean me and most others on here. I acknowledge that some on here will know or have been told the details of the complaint and I am aware that Caroline may have access to this thread or indeed people close to her. I also acknowledge that the reporting person, OIC and direct witnesses may also read the thread and hence will not be included in the term 'we'.

This post is also answering a point raised by Datun & DerekFaker. Other posters need not comment on it. By all mean post if you want to, but I reserve my right to answer posts raised by members of this forum.

Felix125 · Today 11:07
Datun
So you're suggesting that we should only listen to reporting people in certain circumstance?

And if so when?

Haha! I should so do the lottery today. My powers of prediction are infallible.

And this is clearly wrong.

They should not be put under any pressure such as this.
I don't do it - my colleagues don't do it and I don't expect other officers to do it.
If they do, they should be sacked in my opinion.

And if you have direct experience of this - you need to raise it and get them finished - I don't want people like that in the police force.

If a prosecution case fails at CPS/court because of this, then that is a different matter - but a victim/survivor should not have any pressure put on them.

Datun
So I take it you can't answer or you acknowledge that there is no definite answer.

Each incident should be taken on its own merits.

Something I have been saying for quite some time now

Felix125

Datun
So I take it you can't answer or you acknowledge that there is no definite answer.

And another transparent attempt to deflect responsibility onto women for felix's, 'take'. Felix's 'take' is felix's own responsibility.

Felix will now double down on setting up women to reinforce Felix's own viewpoint. Sorry, 'take'.

It is right however you are not listening to us when we say that women are not listened to properly or taken seriously when they are the reporting person. You are very very good at proving our point for us I'll give you that.

They should not be put under any pressure such as this.
I don't do it - my colleagues don't do it and I don't expect other officers to do it.
If they do, they should be sacked in my opinion.

I'm highlighting this bit because it is astoundingly (but not surprisingly) bollocks.

You KNOW it happens. You KNOW this. We have told you, police authorities have spoken about it, newspapers report it.

And yet you are fingers in ears and "lalalala i can't hear you" despite a SHIT TONNE (metric) of evidence to the contrary.

Which is also how we know there are racist, misogynist and other horrible traits among your colleagues. Because the police have talked about this themselves.

So we have no incentive to believe you on anything because you say you don't see it. You see what you want to see.

God, you're not a detective are you?

Datun
How am I deflecting responsibility onto women?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus
So what precisely have I not listened to or answered on this thread?

I have been on most of the 34 pages answering points raised.

If there are examples of victims/survivors/reporting people not being listened to - then its wrong and it needs to be complained about and the officers taken to task.

Brefugee
So you are accusing me and my colleagues at work of doing it?

OK if so - when has this happened?

When I have done this - since you are directly accusing me and my colleagues of such? You have never met me or my colleagues - so you can't say. You are just guessing. if you are saying 'its bollocks' then you need to show where this has happened with respect to myself and my colleagues?

If others are doing it - its wrong and should be stopped and the officers sacked.
If I see it happening I will call it out
If I don't see it, I can't call it out.

Which is also how we know there are racist, misogynist and other horrible traits among your colleagues. Because the police have talked about this themselves.

Indeed. And are repeatedly told to try and change the public's perception.

Felix must wonder why they would be bothering to change the public's perception, if the public perception is so favourable.

God, you're not a detective are you?

😁

"If I don't see it I can't call it out".... right there is the issue, nice and clearly put!

Of course you bloody can. You can discuss what is good practice and what is bad practice, it can be repeated daily each morning, if you like. You can have regular training sessions about how to appropriately handle investigations. You can raise this as an issue with any and all internal police organisations or groups that you belong to. Etc etc.

Policing should be like teaching in that there should be reflective practice - where you regularly, as part of your performance management or workplace development, reflect back on your own practice. You look at whether what you're doing is effective and meets standards. Etc etc.

Datun

Majority of people seem to have a good perception of the police - 75% in fact

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/confidence-in-the-local-police/latest#:~:text=The%20data%20shows%20that%3A,than%20Black%20people%20(64%25)