Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

[Pluvia]

Mumsnet, are you aware that GC views are acceptable and are held by the vast majority of people in the UK?

Why are you using the 'not in the spirit of Mumsnet' argument to shut down discussions?

In the thread about a trans co-worker you allowed pro-trans arguments presumably from the US, Australia and Canada to mount up overnight. When GC women here in the UK countered with facts this morning you shut the thread down. I didn't see a single offensive post — unless you've changed policy and now think using the medical term autogynephilia is offensive.

This is not acceptable. Maya Forstater's case established that GC views are worthy of respect and yet you seem to be censoring open debate.

Nobody has been able to give a single reason why this man and similar men are not able to use the mens facilities.

Indeed. And despite my vehemency sometimes, I do strive to try and be calm when explaining.

I'm fully aware that people are coming to this at different stages, with different experiences and perspectives.

Eg, a mother whose child identifies as trans is going to have a completely different outlook, to a man who cross dresses and demands entry irrespective of women's consent.

But to be honest, the relentless violence and threats that women have had to endure just to be able to speak, have propelled many women, including me, beyond any concept of patience known to humanity.

It's why we all drink 🤣

Do you extend the same logic to excluding/avoiding men, eg as those attending women-only spaces, events, training etc do?

If not, why not? Why dp you feel it's ok to exclude men on the basis of a characteristic they have but not anyone else?

That sounds like phobia to a lot of people.

Oooh, sounds like you're being phobiaphobic.

Phobiaphobe.

Good lord BonfireLady. Your post about AGP has been deleted.

What were the chances!

I can't help feeling responsible. It didn't look delete worthy to me. But who knows?

Perhaps we ought to stick to talking about shops which sell jeans and Ben Sherman shirts 👕 👖

I referred to a woman as she the other day and was pulled up by someone else , who told me I should be using he.I had had no interaction with her so had no way of knowing. Actually she seemed to be hanging out with the lesbians so I had no reason to question my assumption. I was cross that I was expected to accept this when this was clearly a woman. I may well run into her again so is my choice to treat her as a man, in which case I would probably avoid her or actually talk to her about why she needs to call herself she when she has taken advantage of lesbian support and sisterhood. The main difference with this situation and dealing with a man is that I am not in any way intimidated or threatened by her sex . And ai still won’t fall into line and pretend I believe in the lie.

BonfireLady

you can ask HQ exactly why it was deleted, and they will tell you. You may disagree, but at least then, you will be aware of exactly which bit strayed into the rule breaking.

@Helleofabore

Can you read? I said no one knows what the majority of women feel.
I then gave my opinion and stated it was my opinion.

The difference between us is that I didn't (unlike you) try & state that my views are representative of the majority.
Maybe they are
Maybe they are not.

Until every single woman is polled, we comply don't know. You are talking in bad faith and once again

You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion
You are absolutely not entitled to make up your own pretendy "facts" aka misinformation.

HTH

I'd just really like an explanation and definition of transphobia

The label is an easy get out and catch all for all things that 'someone might not like'

That wasn’t actually helpful at all.

HTH!

Women have been polled tho.

unless you just don't believe in polls. Which is fine.

when people do polls, they results are viewed as representative. They don't actually ask every single person in the country.

I read HTH as a word these days

like a little self satisfied exhalation

oh the irony of the deletions on this thread

The other thing about the rules is that you are not allowed to generalise, but, on the other hand, you're not allowed to be too specific.

Which is genius, when you think about it.

Datun I had forgotten that particular bit of genius! But I still don’t understand not in the spirit…

But what is this 'trans status' you mention?

Does a man achieve trans status by truly believing himself to be a woman? Once upon a time I might have been sympathetic of such an error and its aetiology. Now I just see it as foolishness based on absurdity. (Too much harm has been done, I suppose.)

Or does a man achieve trans status by simply pretending to be a woman? By lying, in other words?

I see nothing wrong with suggesting avoiding someone on the basis that person is either a fool or a liar.

Does that makes me transphobic? Tough. Tant pis.

I think it's about making this a space where trans people can also post, and it not feeling unwelcome due to what is deemed uncivil.

Which is a tricky one to navigate, because it's so open to interpretation.

But you have to remember that every post that gets deleted has been reported. So whoever has reported it has, presumably, complained that it's made them personally upset. Or unwelcome, etc.

MN has to rely on advertisers, and I'm assuming they have come to some kind of policy which allows women to say as much as they can, without pissing off the advertisers enough to withdraw.

@Datun That really is genius

Overall this is just so symptomatic of how society has gone and continues to go - people who are unable to regulate their emotions around some words and how the words make them feel, expect everyone else to change their way of speaking, instead of becoming more robust themselves.

It is the 'tyranny of the weak' in action - weak people who cannot regulate themselves or bear to hear an opposing view, tyranically demanding that everyone joins them in their fragility and neuroticism.

MN is enabling it.

@Datun & others.

In Scotland the majority of women polled in the majority of polls & in the consultations support self-Id.
And the UN & the who and the majority of the Scottish Parliament.

Thank goodness.

Once again everyone is entitled to state their own opinion. The person I quoted tried to state that the majority of women back their view. That's just not accurate.

Some people cannot get beyond common sense to good sense & start proclaiming nonsense as facts making it impossible to discuss rationally before they turn nasty on these boards. It's unsurprising lots of posts are deleted.

They will not let women with the opposing view to them speak. Which is rank hypocrisy frankly.

Another thing about 'such people' weak people - the ones who are constantly reporting stuff - they literally have no sense of humour. Nothing can be joked about. I don't know why the world is letting this happen - hunour is a vital human condition. I blame the #bekind movement - it's like people think that they have a right to kindness in every circumstance.

I mean, many trans women are funny. Everyone knows this.

Time for another chance to see what Germaine has to say about what we experience as older women. See also the thread on AIBU where women talk about standing their ground in the street and in cars.

No-one can stop you speaking. That's the beauty of this place.

I don't want to answer for @Helleofabore, as she is the person you are quoting, and she's quite, er, analytical enough to be able to refute your arguments herself.

I really hope Kirsty Wark is thoroughly ashamed of her stance in that interview

She made a right tit of herself.

The simple fact of the matter is that the gc mob on here are so horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion that the rest of us are angry sometimes. There is a lot of deliberate misrepresentation and repeating of tropes it's exhausting.

You don't get to speak for us (inclusive feminists) (but some try to) and you leave us no place to express our feeling and thoughts.

This feels like rank hypocrisy - for goodness sake let other women speak.

Re the definition of transphobia. For me I think if you wouldn't say the same about a person of colour or another race in this context then its worthy of self examination.

This can come from a place of ignorance or fear.
Both are understandable emotions but we cannot and should not expect society to discriminate against others because of the fears of ignorance of some.

I did not see the post about the woman who would rather have looked for any other job than work with a trans woman. However if (and ifs doing some heavy lifting there ) That's clear transphobia & should have no place in society imho