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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jackie Green reacts to KJK

302 replies

FisherthemsFriend · 25/04/2023 12:05

https://twitter.com/The_StateMedia/status/1650560961353248769

Above is a clipped version, highlighting the many times JG calls KJK a bitch. In the Twitter thread is JG’s original video.

I wasn’t sure whether to post this. Really the person to criticise is Susie Green, but at the same time JG is an adult and has publicly made a video using misogynistic language. Or does the background mean JG should be off-limits? Opinions welcome.

https://twitter.com/The_StateMedia/status/1650560961353248769

OP posts:
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12
RadiantFem · 25/04/2023 16:52

I agree that JG is stunted and not operating at the optimum level for most healthy 30 year olds. However the reality is that unfortunately adults with special needs have never been off limits or given a free pass in our society. Think of the way vulnerable people with obvious learning disabilities were routinely humiliated and lambasted on the Jeremy Kyle a few years back and a lot of people thought that was socially acceptable. Certainly ITV saw fit to broadcast it daily on morning tv.
People with very low IQ’s and various learning disabilities make up a significant proportion of the inmates in the prison system, so aren’t given a free pass in that respect. People are often left unsupported and become homeless and destitute due to their learning needs.
All this is horrible and I think, unfair. I’m not sure what the answer is tbh, it’s another discussion in itself.
What I’m saying is, what is so different about JG? The reality is, JG is behaving obnoxiously in a public space at age 30 and there may well be natural consequences to that. Probably not from “terfs” etc but rather more than likely from homophobic blokes because we can’t police everybody and make sure everybody is willing to treat vulnerable people as “off limits” as such. The real world is the real world. It’s unforgiving and often brutal. It seems SG has done her child more than one disservice by seeking an alternate reality and keeping her child out of actual reality.

potniatheron · 25/04/2023 17:02

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2023 16:50

Secondly, if we say that JG is vulnerable, it's actually hugely patronising. And tbh no other adults get a free pass to be dicks online (or anywhere in RL) because people think they're vulnerable. Prisons are FULL of vulnerable men and women. If we removed all vulnerable people from prison, they'd be empty save for a few fraudsters.

Jackie Green suffers from this weird infantilising thing that's going on with the TRA movement.

Jackie is 30 years old. Like Daniel Radcliffe is 33 years old. Like Prince Harry is 38.

What do theyhave in common? Their media persona / value is about their experience in their youth and this Peter Pan phenomena that springs from it.

I think that's fascinating in itself. They aren't young anymore. With youth the quality of innocence and vulnerability is intertwined. But in reality by the age of 30 we typically hold people responsible for their actions and mistakes and having had the benefit of time to outgrow the recklessness and vulnerability of their youth.

Women don't tend to get the same longevity of that innocence as they take on responsibility when they have children.

How does Jackie Green sit within that context as Jackie gets older? And is unable to have children? Forever a child in the minds of the public.

I note at this point that Jackie Greens existence in the public eye isn't for Jackie's benefit. It's always for Suzie. Suzie built a life, career and purpose around Jackie. Jackie's purpose in life is what exactly?

If Jackie rejects their identity, they reject their mother and discredit their mother.

That makes for a really difficult situation for Jackie once confronted with it. That Jackie has ANY doubts at this point is actually significant to me for this reason. It explains the vitriol in a sense - Jackie is presented with a choice of making their own peace with themselves and resolving what's going on OR accepting and supporting their mother and the purpose in life that Suzie decided FOR her child. A decision that normally a child makes for themselves rather than is imposed on them by a parent.

The reverse is true too. Attacking the ideology is a personal attack on Suzie Green the mother. Few people react well to personal attacks on their mother and it has to be seen in this context.

All whilst having taken puberty blockers which knock points off your IQ (thus potentially your ability to process and resolve some of these issues intellectually).

But clearly Jackie is questioning something, and that's the only exit route from the ideology.

Why is it uncomfortable to watch? Precisely because it puts responsibility on Jackie to take some adult responsibility and almost give a life update as to whether their transition has worked or not. Jackie has the power as an adult to stand up to mum and say this isn't cool, or to double down despite obvious self doubts that have crept in. Jackie isn't powerless at this point. Jackie is independent and not living with Suzie. Jackie doesn't want to take the responsibility of being the poster child and role model but can't say 'its all a pile of crap' either. Infantilising behavior is a way to avoid that dilemma, cos 'oh they are so vulnerable'. It's avoidance of stepping up and saying there is a problem. That's not simply vulnerability. That's being cowardly when you know you are being used to sell this to a bunch of new kids and you are fundamentally unhappy and still chasing the wind.

At what point should we deem Jackie to have responsibility? Or are we saying that Jackie lacks capacity - and therefore would be 'not guilt' by default if they committed a crime?

At 30, the concept of innocence and powerlessness over Jackie's own life, doesn't wash completely.

I feel terribly sorry for how Jackie is a victim, but Jackie's isn't 15 anymore either. Jackie could stop harm to others.

This is a brilliant post. Yes, infantilisation is a HUGE thing in the tRA movement (erhmagahhhddd Kween, you're so heckin' valid!!) etc etc.

I can't decide whether it's a tacit admission that these people are too vulnerable to be treated as functional adults, and therefore it's a kind of wlaking on eggshells, or whether it's something rather more sinister, which will get this post deleted if I speculate on what it is.

But there does seem to be a strange urge to treat MtFs in particular, like young schoolgirls, and for them to behave as such.

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 17:11

School girls don't get treated well.

This is all about pandering to a certain subset of men by women and men.

ANewCreation · 25/04/2023 17:26

I found it interesting that JG says it was actually a slightly older cousin who told them when they were little 'maybe you could have an operation' to turn you from a boy to a girl. Absolutely this rings true, it's just such magical childlike thinking - and before then, like Posie, I had imagined it was SG implanting the seed of the idea of medicalisation. Of course, it's just kid imaginings.

Oh to be able to go back in time and for SG as a parent/any adult then present in JG's life to say, 'sorry lovely, no, that's not actually how life works. Anyway, there is no need for a magic wand. Enjoy the toys and the dresses and the friendship with girls as you are. Nothing wrong with you. Right, what's for tea...

Just so devastating for all the lives Mermaids has crapped up because one woman couldn't say no to her 6 year old...

Boiledbeetle · 25/04/2023 17:31

When i watched it last night I was left with an incredibly sad feeling. Watching Jackie hear KJK's words and the silences followed by insults seemed like Jackie was having a very hard time finding oneself in a position of actually hearing the truth about their life for the first time.

Datun · 25/04/2023 17:42

There's certainly discussion to be had about what constitutes capacity. And, in terms of Jackie Green, I wholeheartedly agree that what Jackie has to say is up for scrutiny and comment. Because Jackie is something of a poster child for trans ideology. it needs challenging every step of the way.

Upthread, someone likened Jackie to a TRA. And I think that's the issue, for me.

Transactivism was done to Jackie. Jackie didn't have a vested interest. It was Susie Green who had that.

It's not so much that I'm concerned with the effects on Jackie, even. It's that I think we're listening to a kid. It's less about their accountability, in a way, and more about the fact that what they say is bollocks kids' chat. Because I genuinely think they have the brain of a child due to never having gone through puberty.

Personally, I really, really think the time is massively overdue for a study into the effects of puberty blockers on mental development and emotional maturity.

And we all know why it's not forthcoming. I guarantee, the results would be the end of transitioning children.

Clymene · 25/04/2023 17:51

Jackie's tiktok is really sad.

I agree with you @RedToothBrush that Jackie is in an absolutely impossible position. And under a huge amount of pressure. Imagine knowing that your mother's entire career is built around you? Every parent wants their child to be happy but most of us haven't built a life around our child's happiness.

There are loads of people I know who live with the guilt that their parents made huge financial sacrifices to send them to private school and then they they flunked their exams. That is just a a feather compared to the massive weight of expectation on JG.

It's really interesting that Jackie has resurfaced now. I wonder what has sparked it? Posie's takedown of the Ted talk was ages ago.

I feel desperately sorry for Jackie.

Leafstamp · 25/04/2023 17:56

I've watched the whole video. I noticed Jackie says at some point to the camera 'get some therapy'. I presume Jackie has had therapy at some point, although perhaps not as an adult. I wonder what would be the outcome of some proper therapy now. I suspect Jackie has buried emotions very very deeply and daren't bring them out for exploration.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/04/2023 17:58

But there does seem to be a strange urge to treat MtFs in particular, like young schoolgirls, and for them to behave as such.

School girls don't get treated well.

No, real schoolgirls don't. It's infantilisation and there is of course a weird fixation in some circles with a fantasy version of what many males believe or choose to believe is what it's like to be a young girl - pyjama parties, pampering, Daddy's little princess, none of the nasty stuff that the poor old boys have to put with, etc etc.

I haven't watched the video. It sounds grim. I feel very sorry for JG but as others have said we all know that many vulnerable adults were badly let down in childhood, but even so there comes a point when they are expected to take responsibility for their choices and actions.

Boiledbeetle · 25/04/2023 18:02

Clymene · 25/04/2023 17:51

Jackie's tiktok is really sad.

I agree with you @RedToothBrush that Jackie is in an absolutely impossible position. And under a huge amount of pressure. Imagine knowing that your mother's entire career is built around you? Every parent wants their child to be happy but most of us haven't built a life around our child's happiness.

There are loads of people I know who live with the guilt that their parents made huge financial sacrifices to send them to private school and then they they flunked their exams. That is just a a feather compared to the massive weight of expectation on JG.

It's really interesting that Jackie has resurfaced now. I wonder what has sparked it? Posie's takedown of the Ted talk was ages ago.

I feel desperately sorry for Jackie.

the way I see it for why now:

Jackie is reaching a chronological age where Jackie's peers will be settling down, partners, houses, weddings, children, fulfilling sex lives...

I suspect Jackie is beginning to look at how and why their life is like it is. why they still aren't living the dream they were promised as a child. Seeing friends have healthy satisfying lives, when they are plainly unhappy, confused and not yet ready to accept the truth of what was done to them as a child.

(I had an abusive mother. It was in my 30's that I stopped making excuses for her behaviour and also when I began to realise that things I'd thought we're my choices actually hadn't been)

Even with an obviously much younger mental age than their actual years life around Jackie will be showing Jackie that something's not right in Jackies history.

Susies firing from Mermaids might also have been a chance for the protective mum is always right bubble to get a small hole.

SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 18:03

Clymene · 25/04/2023 17:51

Jackie's tiktok is really sad.

I agree with you @RedToothBrush that Jackie is in an absolutely impossible position. And under a huge amount of pressure. Imagine knowing that your mother's entire career is built around you? Every parent wants their child to be happy but most of us haven't built a life around our child's happiness.

There are loads of people I know who live with the guilt that their parents made huge financial sacrifices to send them to private school and then they they flunked their exams. That is just a a feather compared to the massive weight of expectation on JG.

It's really interesting that Jackie has resurfaced now. I wonder what has sparked it? Posie's takedown of the Ted talk was ages ago.

I feel desperately sorry for Jackie.

Every parent wants their child to be happy

I don't understand that statement especially on a thread like this.

Every adult and every parent don't want all children to be happy or to have a good outcome.

There would be no need for safeguarding or the justice system if that was the case.

Also this feelings thing and happy thing!

All this concern about feelings and throwing away thinking things through, it is unhelpful.

I have never in my life met the Unicorn 'happy' all the time person, could a human survive beng constantly happy? What happens when they need fear to safeguard themselves? Do they permanently grin to themselves in joy as a rabid bear attacks them in the woods?

RedToothBrush · 25/04/2023 18:04

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/04/2023 17:58

But there does seem to be a strange urge to treat MtFs in particular, like young schoolgirls, and for them to behave as such.

School girls don't get treated well.

No, real schoolgirls don't. It's infantilisation and there is of course a weird fixation in some circles with a fantasy version of what many males believe or choose to believe is what it's like to be a young girl - pyjama parties, pampering, Daddy's little princess, none of the nasty stuff that the poor old boys have to put with, etc etc.

I haven't watched the video. It sounds grim. I feel very sorry for JG but as others have said we all know that many vulnerable adults were badly let down in childhood, but even so there comes a point when they are expected to take responsibility for their choices and actions.

You forget the manga inspired dressing as a Japanese schoolgirl.

That was one of the things early on that made me feel deeply uncomfortable with sibling. As well as the faux simpering fake voice and gestures.

Clymene · 25/04/2023 18:13

@SpeedSnap - I agree that was clumsy wording. I meant (fairly obviously I think) that most parents want good outcomes/good mental health for our children. Happiness is shorthand for that.

SG's whole shtick is that for Jackie it was a choice between transition or death. So transition was the only way forward. Jackie's whole identity is bound up in that transition being successful, that the vast sums of money and time spent on transition were 'worth it' and that it absolutely proves that some people are born in the wrong body. If Jackie is absolutely bloody miserable, then it begs the question of what the hell it was all for.

Incidentally (and this isn't in response to your post but a separate point), the video game that Jackie plays is this. The player can switch between different characters and they all have different magical abilities. It has a 12 rating in the U.K.

Jackie Green reacts to KJK
Boiledbeetle · 25/04/2023 18:19

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SpeedSnap · 25/04/2023 18:20

most parents want good outcomes/good mental health for our children

Yes

It is so odd to want a bare branch on your family tree. I feel so bad for all the families harmed by the ideology who will have a child with increased disabilities, care responsibilities, stress and a bare branch. The 'be kind' lot will be delighted with themselves and off having babies and not giving a second thought to the destruction they caused.

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2023 18:25

Doesn't Jackie have siblings? I don't know if nieces and nephews would make things worse or better if you can't have your own children. It probably depends on the family. I hope Jackie is close to any siblings, I hope there's a good support network beyond mum.

HathorsFigTree · 25/04/2023 18:25

Boiledbeetle · 25/04/2023 17:31

When i watched it last night I was left with an incredibly sad feeling. Watching Jackie hear KJK's words and the silences followed by insults seemed like Jackie was having a very hard time finding oneself in a position of actually hearing the truth about their life for the first time.

Yes. I felt very uneasy about it. It made me think about my own kids and how loyal they are to me. If I had made catastrophically bad parenting choices and someone did a justified critique of my actions I think my kids would want to stick up for me too. It’s uncomfortable to see that play out.

JolyGoodBloviator · 25/04/2023 18:26

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2023 18:25

Doesn't Jackie have siblings? I don't know if nieces and nephews would make things worse or better if you can't have your own children. It probably depends on the family. I hope Jackie is close to any siblings, I hope there's a good support network beyond mum.

3 younger brothers.

WinterTrees · 25/04/2023 18:32

One of the saddest things for me is how often Jackie repeats that all these things were their choice. 'I wanted it... I chose those photos... I wasn't forced into it...' and variations of those things crop up again and again.

I wonder if, after Jackie had made the video, they mulled that over a bit more. I wonder if they may at some point start to change their perspective on it being a good thing.

GrimDamnFanjo · 25/04/2023 18:35

No idea that Jackie was 30. I hope they find some peace as they get older.

Datun · 25/04/2023 18:41

HathorsFigTree · 25/04/2023 18:25

Yes. I felt very uneasy about it. It made me think about my own kids and how loyal they are to me. If I had made catastrophically bad parenting choices and someone did a justified critique of my actions I think my kids would want to stick up for me too. It’s uncomfortable to see that play out.

Yes. It's a 'devil and the deep blue sea' scenario.

It's a horrible situation. Getting 'trans kids' to understand what's happened to them is going to bring their life crashing down and negatively affect their support network.

That's no reason not to do it, because otherwise you're just perpetuating the problem, of course.

But it's not without damage.

Datun · 25/04/2023 18:44

JolyGoodBloviator · 25/04/2023 18:26

3 younger brothers.

I wonder if that's significant. Jackie was the first child.

Melroses · 25/04/2023 18:46

(I had an abusive mother. It was in my 30's that I stopped making excuses for her behaviour and also when I began to realise that things I'd thought we're my choices actually hadn't been)

That sounds about right - but I think I was into my 40s before I realised that there was not a way to put it 'right'.

Datun · 25/04/2023 18:46

WinterTrees · 25/04/2023 18:32

One of the saddest things for me is how often Jackie repeats that all these things were their choice. 'I wanted it... I chose those photos... I wasn't forced into it...' and variations of those things crop up again and again.

I wonder if, after Jackie had made the video, they mulled that over a bit more. I wonder if they may at some point start to change their perspective on it being a good thing.

Jazz Jennings has said the same in their recent video.

It's disgusting manipulation by their parents, in my opinion.

No child suddenly believes that their body is wrong, because of their behaviour or their choices.

Datun · 25/04/2023 18:48

Melroses · 25/04/2023 18:46

(I had an abusive mother. It was in my 30's that I stopped making excuses for her behaviour and also when I began to realise that things I'd thought we're my choices actually hadn't been)

That sounds about right - but I think I was into my 40s before I realised that there was not a way to put it 'right'.

Yes. Life experience, relationships, sometimes having children of your own, it all helps to form our self analysis.

What worries me, is that people like Jackie Green will always have the life experience of a ten-year-old.

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