What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

[sunshinesupermum]

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

transmen are women so why would they be a threat?

@EsterCat

MN isn't a hivemind, and we all have different perspectives on a given issue.

On Transmen, my view is that they are women, and that's the beginning and end of the matter regarding safety.

They are welcome in our toilets, but it's not our concern if they choose to use the men's toilets. Men may object, they may not, that's their fight.

My feminism is inclusive of transmen, because it recognises that the problems women face are faced by all women.

Transmen and women who identify as non-binary or any other different gender identity are still female. They will experience or be at risk of the same issues that other women face due to their sex.

Surely the lack of discussion on here regarding transmen proves that we do not actually hate trans people. We just don't believe that humans can change sex and wish to exclude all males from female single sex provision no matter how they identify.

I don't know the answer, I am asking the question because I'm genuinely wondering what people here think on it. I guess, for a more specific example, how you would feel if a male presenting and male "passing" trans man was in a female space, a toilet for example. How would you know they were trans and didn't have a penis and therefore "not a threat"? How would that be different to a trans woman being in a female space, if you didn't know what was in their pants and couldn't tell by looking at them? I'm not asking to stir or receive criticism for asking, I just haven't really seen the trans men side of the discussion mentioned much, so I thought I would ask more about it. There's endless expressions on trans women but not trans men, so I'd like to know more about the thoughts on trans men and how gender critical feminists consider them and the issues that trans men face, if they are seen as women.

Males don't pass as women though. However well they do their makeup. Females can identify males. Easily.

Is it not more likely that a passing transman would not be in the womens toilets? They would be in the mens, as that would surely be their preference.

Ok you said transman. Sorry! Transmen aren't a threat to women though, so pose no threat. Being female they are also more closely matched to other users of the facility in terms of size and strength.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4778487-transmen?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

there you go @EsterCat a whole thread from a few weeks ago

Thank you for answering thoughtfully. Do you think that the issues that trans men face specifically around being transgender are a woman's issue? I'm not sure trans specific issues are the same exactly as women's issues but there is a clear intersection, so I think I can understand where you're coming from somewhat.

@EsterCat

Regarding other issues that transmen face, participation in female sports is a tough one. Although most will retain their female size and proportions, taking testosterone does give them an unfair advantage so I'm cautious about allowing unfettered access.

Testosterone limits are useful for competitive sports. I'm a little more open in terms of amateur sports, but still think it's unfair to have that advantage. In that sense I treat them exactly as I would any other woman taking performance enhancing supplements.

Yes, I agree but that's not what I'm getting at. The point being made often is that trans folk shouldn't have the right to use single sex spaces if it is the opposite to their sex. In which case, trans men would need to use the female toilet and female spaces. You wouldn't be able to have it that trans men can use the male space and then not have trans women in female spaces, it wouldn't be one rule for one and one for the other. So, I'm thinking about how that would impact trans men specifically or the women seeing trans men in their spaces and what gender critical people think about issues that trans men might face.

If someone passes (and most don’t) then yes, they have the privilege of using the wrong sex loo.

There’s not much concern about transmen because as I’m sure you’re aware, it’s males who commit the majority of violent crime and almost all sex crimes.

Varying thoughts on this.

What facilities do transmen use? Are they at risk in men's facilities?

Some transmen do pass pretty well. They may well cause alarm in women's spaces. So should probably use third spaces (using male spaces would present a risk to them) to avoid causing alarm or distress to women.

I used to think transmen presented no threat, as females, but given the incidents of sex by deception - all of whom were transmen, as far as I'm aware - and recent shootings in the US, which seem to have included several transmen - I am now wondering whether exogenous testosterone supplements may actually be causing aggression. And whether transmen may, statistically, present a slightly larger risk than other females. Of course nobody is doing any research on the outcomes of dosing with testosterone, so this is an impossible question to really answer with evidence.

On the whole its fine, is my general feeling - I'm perfectly comfortable sharing spaces with the transmen that I know. But there are perhaps some questions we should be asking about the impact of exogenous cross-sex hormones, especially on young females with comorbidities.

So, yes, most of you want to expel transgender people from spaces they currently lawfully occupy for what you consider to be legitimate reasons. You want to take away rights they currently have, which was exactly my point.

They don’t have a right to use the loo that matches their gender, because there is no loo for cake gendered people or the other god knows how many genders. Don’t be silly

@EsterCat personally, and I'm not speaking for anyone else or from any kind of ideological viewpoint, I'd be happy to see additional mixed sex facilities for anyone that would prefer to use them for whatever reason. For situations like toilets and changing rooms, as long as it was alongside genuinely single sex facilities.

DadJoke · Today 17:26

So, yes, most of you want to expel transgender people from spaces they currently lawfully occupy for what you consider to be legitimate reasons. You want to take away rights they currently have, which was exactly my point.

They have limited rights, constrained by lawful circumstances and can be excluded (ie denied access, not expelled, as they're not allowed in the first place) if it is proportionate under law.

You mentioned that last point in an earlier post.

I think the thing is @EsterCat a lot of women on MN have teenage or early 20s daughters identifying as TM who don’t pass in a million years. They wouldn’t be safe in men’s spaces however much they think they would be.

gay men are also starting to experience the boxer ceiling where TM turn up on their dating apps insisting they’re gay men the way TW insist their lesbians )though Tbf it’s done with significant aggression and entitlement than TW)

The sports topic is a confusing one, I guess it's about trying to match competition physically as close as possible. Hormones creating a difference can surely be a factor trans or not, but easier to navigate and more likely to be level with other sports folk if not. Would you say that creating trans spaces or non-binary spaces is a solution? I saw someone say earlier that trans people should be making their own fight for their own spaces. I wonder how well only 1% of the population would succeed in making safe spaces for themselves so they can still partake in sports, etc. I think if the point is that the women's or men's spaces don't include trans people but trans people (including trans men and trans women) still deserve to live their lives safely, there should be support for alternatives and allyship to make that possible.

Has dadjoke learned USA law, custom & practice is not the same as UK law?

also nobody ever fucking asked women if we minded men LARPING as women in our spaces. As always men just discussed, agreed it amongst themselves & did it.

Yes, absolutely.

That’s the third spaces argument @EsterCat which had been roundly rejected by TRA as it doesn’t provide the necessary validation

Interesting info and thoughts about testosterone, thank you. Perhaps that is research that will come in time, I guess it must take longer for such niche studies to be funded.
And yes, trans men (trans people in general) are at severe risk of violence for being trans so being in men's spaces safely could pose a risk to them.
How do you think we could make third options available to trans people so that they were safer but were not using single sex spaces? As they are such a minority group, should we not do more to support the creation of spaces for trans and non-binary folk in order to keep single sex spaces and create more safety for all?

I'm not raising the question of what trans people need, or placing my opinion differently to that. I'm curious as to what the gender critical consider as a suitable solution and how, for them, this thinking applies to each group.