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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

472 replies

sunshinesupermum · 17/04/2023 17:33

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

OP posts:
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12
IcakethereforeIam · 21/04/2023 11:09

@MargotBamborough brilliant posts.

Polygonpresent · 21/04/2023 11:32

@eellww

Can I also just point out on intersectionality, that actually its us GC women and men (mainly women) doing the intersectional work on this issue. We look at the intersection between teenage girls and the rise of gender incongruence; of autism and gender incongruence; of the intersection of gender incongruence and trauma; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of women; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of same sex attracted people; of the intersection of gender ideology and the need for clear health communications, particularly for those with learning disabilities or who do not have English as a first language; of the intersection between gender ideology and women and girls affected by male sexual violence; of the intersection between gender ideology and class - particularly for those who are in prison and those who need to use publicly funded services such as refuges, single sex homeless accommodation and addiction recovery centres; we look at the intersection between gender ideology and those from religious communities. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Its us who are doing the intersectional thinking and analysis of the impact of gender ideology on all of these areas. And its the gender ideologues who are ignoring all of these issues and analyses as they are 'inconvenient' for their ideology. So please do not try to pretend that we are not doing intersectional work. We absolutely are looking at the intersection between gender ideology and all of these groups in society. Your side is not.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 12:05

Thanks for your comments everyone, I was seriously raging last night!

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 12:09

Polygonpresent · 21/04/2023 11:32

@eellww

Can I also just point out on intersectionality, that actually its us GC women and men (mainly women) doing the intersectional work on this issue. We look at the intersection between teenage girls and the rise of gender incongruence; of autism and gender incongruence; of the intersection of gender incongruence and trauma; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of women; of the intersection of gender ideology and the rights of same sex attracted people; of the intersection of gender ideology and the need for clear health communications, particularly for those with learning disabilities or who do not have English as a first language; of the intersection between gender ideology and women and girls affected by male sexual violence; of the intersection between gender ideology and class - particularly for those who are in prison and those who need to use publicly funded services such as refuges, single sex homeless accommodation and addiction recovery centres; we look at the intersection between gender ideology and those from religious communities. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Its us who are doing the intersectional thinking and analysis of the impact of gender ideology on all of these areas. And its the gender ideologues who are ignoring all of these issues and analyses as they are 'inconvenient' for their ideology. So please do not try to pretend that we are not doing intersectional work. We absolutely are looking at the intersection between gender ideology and all of these groups in society. Your side is not.

THIS!

Intersectional feminism is supposed to be about including those women. Women of colour, disabled women, poor women, incarcerated women, women from religious minorities, neurodiverse women, women who grew up in the care system.

It is not, and has never been, about prioritising male "women" over those women.

MavisMcMinty · 21/04/2023 12:31

I have a serious MN crush on you/your posts, @MargotBamborough !

I wish Kirstie Allsopp would read them.

wincarwoo · 21/04/2023 12:34

MavisMcMinty · 21/04/2023 12:31

I have a serious MN crush on you/your posts, @MargotBamborough !

I wish Kirstie Allsopp would read them.

She was shocking on Twitter last week.

MavisMcMinty · 21/04/2023 12:45

Yes, I saw a lot of it! TBF to poor Kirstie, I once tweeted (what I thought was) a scrupulously fair, neutral, both-sidesy opinion on trans issues, and got a pile-on from both sides! So that learned me, and it was my first and last tweet on the issue. Kirstie just keeps on going, thinking she’s right and kind and fair to all, and determined to solve the problem as though it were a hand-made Christmas decoration that just needs the right glue.

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 13:57

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Well we believe that trans people should have the same rights as everyone else.

So it makes sense that "rights" which no one else actually has, and which never should have been granted to trans people because this has caused prejudice to other groups, should be removed.

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 14:06

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

They have the right to use single-sex spaces which are appropriate to their sex, not whatever 'gender' they feel like.

There is a bit of a grey area concerning the relatively small number of people who identify as transgender and who also have a GRC, but I hope we will soon get clarification that 'sex' in the EA2010 means biological sex and not the falsified legal sex obtained with a GRC.

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 14:10

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Nobody should have the right to use single-sex spaces which are designed for the opposite sex for reasons of privacy, dignity and (in the case of female-only spaces) safety.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 14:17

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 14:06

They have the right to use single-sex spaces which are appropriate to their sex, not whatever 'gender' they feel like.

There is a bit of a grey area concerning the relatively small number of people who identify as transgender and who also have a GRC, but I hope we will soon get clarification that 'sex' in the EA2010 means biological sex and not the falsified legal sex obtained with a GRC.

Show quote history

It's a nonsense anyway. What does having a GRC actually achieve?

At the time the GRA was introduced, it was necessary for a trans person to have a GRC in order to be allowed to marry someone of the same biological sex, which could have been achieved simply by legalising same sex marriage.

But that's no longer necessary, and I'm not sure what else having a GRC actually does. Certainly there are no bouncers checking for GRCs on toilet doors. And according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it is in most cases inappropriate, and in some cases unlawful, to ask someone to prove their biological sex by producing their birth certificate or GRC.

So if you don't actually need a GRC to do anything in particular, and in practice we aren't even allowed to ask someone whether they have one, let alone require them to produce it, what is the point of them?

In reality, we already have self ID.

SinnerBoy · 21/04/2023 14:19

eellww · Yesterday 16:16

Differences in sex development:

What have DSDs got to do with being trans? Nothing. People with DSDs have said repeatedly that they find it grossly insulting to be co-opted, against their wishes, into arguments about trans people.

lifeturnsonadime · 21/04/2023 14:19

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

What is awful about this is that transgender people invaded single sex spaces without consent in the first place.

We segregate by sex for a reason.

The only trans gender people I feel sorry for in this are the young children who have been lied to that their feelings are more important than material reality. This doesn't mean I think they should enter spaces for the opposite sex without consent.

Original poster
sunshinesupermum · 21/04/2023 14:33

Transpeople *have the right to use single-sex spaces which are appropriate to their sex, not whatever 'gender' they feel like.

This.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 14:35

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Oh, I see. You're American. That provides some explanation, at least.

Things are very different here in the UK.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 14:35

I mean, there really is no such thing as a toilet which matches your gender, is there?

So what trans people have currently got is the right to use toilets and other single sex spaces which are supposed to be for the opposite sex. Despite the fact that there ate toilets and single sex spaces for people of their own sex.

Why should they have that right?

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 14:37

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 14:17

It's a nonsense anyway. What does having a GRC actually achieve?

At the time the GRA was introduced, it was necessary for a trans person to have a GRC in order to be allowed to marry someone of the same biological sex, which could have been achieved simply by legalising same sex marriage.

But that's no longer necessary, and I'm not sure what else having a GRC actually does. Certainly there are no bouncers checking for GRCs on toilet doors. And according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it is in most cases inappropriate, and in some cases unlawful, to ask someone to prove their biological sex by producing their birth certificate or GRC.

So if you don't actually need a GRC to do anything in particular, and in practice we aren't even allowed to ask someone whether they have one, let alone require them to produce it, what is the point of them?

In reality, we already have self ID.

Show quote history

I'm not sure if this has been updated recently, but the guidance for prisons from the MoJ was that prisoners should be initially allocated to the estate which matches their legally recognised sex. In the case of a man with a GRC (legally a woman), this would mean that he would automatically go to a women's prison.

For more everyday purposes, as you say, the GRC is irrelevant. In the case of places like toilets and changing rooms, we just expect most people to behave like decent civilised human beings and not try to enter single-sex spaces which are supposed to be for the opposite sex.

All this talk from TRAs about checking birth certificates or genital inspections at toilet doors just shows that they are not prepared to behave like decent, civilised people.

HelloTreacle9 · 21/04/2023 14:56

Just delurking to say thank you @MargotBamboroughfor your excellent posts on this thread and @Polygonpresentfor the bit on intersectionality.

SidewaysOtter · 21/04/2023 15:05

GC people want to take those rights away.

Those “rights” should never have been granted in the first place so righting a wrong is not really “taking away rights”.

And thank you to @MargotBamborough and @Polygonpresent for your excellent posts!

Tallisker · 21/04/2023 15:13

But they don't actually have that right. That's Stonewall Law, not actually the real law. They've never had the right to use provision for the opposite sex.

Naunet · 21/04/2023 15:26

DadJoke · Today 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender

Really Dadjoke, you sure about that? These spaces seem to be divided by sex as they’re very binary, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a changing room for cake gendered people, have you? So what spaces are cake gendered people using? Must be spaces for other genders huh?

CountZacular · 21/04/2023 15:29

DadJoke · 21/04/2023 13:50

Why don't you start with the rights transgender people have that GC people want to take away? Transgender people legally use bathrooms, changing rooms, and rape crisis centers associated with their gender. They can only be excluded from single sex areas if there are legitimate and proportionate reasons.

GC people want to take those rights away.

Well this is clearly nonsense as non-binary folk have never had a rape crisis centre or toilet that matches their gender. They must be using something else non for them then?

Naunet · 21/04/2023 15:31

CountZacular · 21/04/2023 15:29

Well this is clearly nonsense as non-binary folk have never had a rape crisis centre or toilet that matches their gender. They must be using something else non for them then?

Show quote history

They must all be breaking the law (as DadJoke sees it)…

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 16:59

Out of genuine curiosity can I please have clarified what the stance is on trans men? In this gender critical view, there seems to be little specific talk or focus on trans men and yet in your view they would be women, I take? So is there any difference of viewpoint for them specifically, are you concerned at all for their safety or do you think they are also a threat to you? Do they fit into your definition of a woman and if so how are your politics protecting them?