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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

1000 replies

ZeldaFighter · 10/04/2023 18:10

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

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EmotionalSupportHyena · 11/04/2023 13:27

The reality might be someone seeing another woman being irritated that the tampon machine is empty and saying she’s got some in her bag. But I can’t think of a time this has ever happened in my presence

That’s the only plausible scenario I can come up with and I suspect the machines are largely just during relics nowadays anyway!

The only time I can recall sanpro being requested or asking for a spare is at secondary school in the 80s and it would almost always be a pad and you’d only ask your closest friend in a hushed whisper (and the only reason you would resort to that is non absorbent tracing paper bog roll which I’ve not personally seen in years and years).

99.9 % of the time a woman is caught out unexpectedly surely she’ll just fashion a make shift pad out of toilet paper and go to the shop asap?

Asking a stranger for a tampon is Sex And The City storyline. TW who carry tampons ‘in case they are asked’ are mentally cosplaying Carrie Bradshaw at best (or the grimmer explanation as suggested above).

HarrysStyle · 11/04/2023 13:29

Have they had their penis removed? I think that would be key for me.

gogohmm · 11/04/2023 13:30

We have a m-f trans woman who lives down the road, nobody bats an eyelid, certainly doesn't pass though, definitely looks male in women's clothes yet they are completely accepted and uses the disabled toilet in the pub

Animalsoffartingwood · 11/04/2023 13:32

uses the disabled toilet in the pub
How lovely. Able bodied person shafts disabled people instead of women.

Chersfrozenface · 11/04/2023 13:52

CraftWeekend · 11/04/2023 13:25

I’ve namechanged for this post as it feels like it could be outing.

Someone mentioned the dynamic change when anyone male is part of a women’s group, and I have two examples of this.

I worked with a transsexual (MtF) for a few years, and more recently I spent a weekend learning a craft at a women’s only retreat type event, with two transwomen amongst other women.

I tend to feel obliged to accept them as women, because that’s what they want. The work colleague was married to a man, no children, but the dynamic of the relationship was very different to a typical M-F relationship, although lack of children could explain that. Her behaviour was very male though, so whilst we tried to include her in ladies nights and friendship groups, it didn’t work out as I think she wanted. It always felt a little stifled, we didn’t relax as tends to happen with female only groups, so most of us felt sorry for her as we knew she felt that we weren’t 100% comfortable. She is lovely though, and we still keep in touch, but it’s not the same as a female friendship.

The TW at the craft workshop both identified as lesbians, and kept hitting on other women, and explaining how transphobic lesbians are for rejecting them. It was very uncomfortable. Both dominated conversations and tried to bring it round to smear tests and lesbian sex, which tended to be ignored and the subject changed. Mainly though they were pandered to the whole weekend. Luckily the organiser had made sure the TW were sharing a room, but they made comments about that.
I’ve been to similar weekends that were mixed sex, and never had these issues - by identifying as women the two TW had a huge level of entitlement, and ruined the weekend. I even think that TW being part of a mixed sex group wouldn’t have behaved like that. It was the women only aspect that appeared to give them a sense of power and entitlement.
I know the organiser well (through years of these events), she says it’s always the same, but she can’t specify female only as colleagues of hers have lost their small businesses due to TRA pile ons, and she can’t afford to lose hers. She also says that TW only ever book into women only weekends, not mixed sex.

How many women will book another such event after that experience?

Does the organiser rely to any extent on repeat custom?

hamstersarse · 11/04/2023 13:52

@CraftWeekend

That, I think, is what most women experience around TW.

Ironically, by forcing the issue and demanding access to women's spaces, it means that gradually over time, women will be less accommodating. The woman who doesn't currently want a pile on from TRA's will start to see that unless she takes a stance, no women will book on..........and then it is crunch time - you have to say what you actually think rather than hiding behind politeness

MarshaBradyo · 11/04/2023 13:53

No as being a woman is a matter of biology

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/04/2023 13:59

@CraftWeekend @SquidwardBound

Your observations about "girly hijinks" and "lesbian" transwomen expecting to engage in mostly sexual conversation connects to something I've been wondering for a while, which is whether one of the reasons (some) trans women are so aggressively targetting lesbians for sex is because they are looking at male gay culture which can be very sexualised and where venues and events are often specifically intended to facilitate casual sexual encounters, and wrongly assume that Lesbian social groups have the same dynamic and purpose.

SquidwardBound · 11/04/2023 14:10

@FlirtsWithRhinos interesting. I have no idea.

I do wonder why the focus of so much trans activism is of access to the women’s loos. It’s a weird thing to have such a central focus on. And to be so angry about not being welcomed into.

The fact is, until an aggressive movement started making male people’s access to the women’s loos such a focus, I don’t think most of us have much thought to the loos. Or, if we did, it was about how long the bloody queue would be and how clean it would be in there.

The loos - with their long queues - never felt like a space male people would want to fight us to get into. Although when they did start banging on about it, we all realised that no, we don’t want male people in there for all sorts of very good reasons.

But all these weird ideas about tampon offering and such like suggest the the TRAs involved have quite weird ideas about what goes on in the ladies.

highfidelity · 11/04/2023 14:21

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/04/2023 13:59

@CraftWeekend @SquidwardBound

Your observations about "girly hijinks" and "lesbian" transwomen expecting to engage in mostly sexual conversation connects to something I've been wondering for a while, which is whether one of the reasons (some) trans women are so aggressively targetting lesbians for sex is because they are looking at male gay culture which can be very sexualised and where venues and events are often specifically intended to facilitate casual sexual encounters, and wrongly assume that Lesbian social groups have the same dynamic and purpose.

This is a really interesting theory? idea? Whatever it is, I absolutely concur with this.

CraftWeekend · 11/04/2023 14:29

Chersfrozenface · 11/04/2023 13:52

How many women will book another such event after that experience?

Does the organiser rely to any extent on repeat custom?

There are regular customers who are offered invite only weekends (like a special deal, plus the organiser can control who comes and tries to invite people who will enjoy each others company), so she gets around repeat custom issues that way, and can organise female only, but these can’t be open to newcomers.

It’s affected her business though. She can’t afford to rock any boats, but misses being able to advertise for women only weekends, which were the most rewarding part of her job. Most women are very accepting at sharing space with TW, but the atmosphere is different and not as relaxed.
She does advertise women only, but this attracts TW and she won’t turn anyone away. She’s happy to accept TWAW, but acknowledges it’s not the same, that she would still like to offer female only events and can’t, but is happy to have any customers - who for the most part are lovely.

CraftWeekend · 11/04/2023 14:35

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/04/2023 13:59

@CraftWeekend @SquidwardBound

Your observations about "girly hijinks" and "lesbian" transwomen expecting to engage in mostly sexual conversation connects to something I've been wondering for a while, which is whether one of the reasons (some) trans women are so aggressively targetting lesbians for sex is because they are looking at male gay culture which can be very sexualised and where venues and events are often specifically intended to facilitate casual sexual encounters, and wrongly assume that Lesbian social groups have the same dynamic and purpose.

Yes, this rings true.
A lot seems to be about male fantasies about lesbians, basing their knowledge on fiction written by men for men, and porn.
I’m a lesbian - lesbian porn is very far removed from reality.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 11/04/2023 14:51

HarrysStyle · 11/04/2023 13:29

Have they had their penis removed? I think that would be key for me.

My understanding (though I can't track down the exact figure right now) is that the majority of adult MtF trans women retain their penis. Further, they want to have sex with lesbians (involving their penis in the lesbian's vagina) and want this classed as lesbian sex. As a pp says, lesbians are then portrayed as bigots for saying they don't want PIV sex.

And some MtF trans women retain their penis and get a fake vagina made - it's called penis sparing vaginoplasty.

SerafinasGoose · 11/04/2023 14:59

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/04/2023 13:59

@CraftWeekend @SquidwardBound

Your observations about "girly hijinks" and "lesbian" transwomen expecting to engage in mostly sexual conversation connects to something I've been wondering for a while, which is whether one of the reasons (some) trans women are so aggressively targetting lesbians for sex is because they are looking at male gay culture which can be very sexualised and where venues and events are often specifically intended to facilitate casual sexual encounters, and wrongly assume that Lesbian social groups have the same dynamic and purpose.

It's quite startling, the extent to which these perceived 'rights' extend.

To hell with the rights of others, or that old mantra that 'your right to swing your fist ends where my nose starts'. Aside from women who primarily suffer as a result, it's actually trans people (excluding the aggressive MRAs who have hijacked them) who also stand to be most hurt by this.

But in place of the expected pushback to the tune of 'not in my name', there is tumbleweed.

Shelefttheweb · 11/04/2023 15:01

Animalsoffartingwood · 11/04/2023 13:32

uses the disabled toilet in the pub
How lovely. Able bodied person shafts disabled people instead of women.

If they are suffering from gender dysphoria then that is a disability.

MyGrandmaLizzie · 11/04/2023 15:12

No

Animalsoffartingwood · 11/04/2023 15:13

Shelefttheweb · 11/04/2023 15:01

If they are suffering from gender dysphoria then that is a disability.

Well firstly, not all trans people have gender dysphoria. I'm making the assumption that the vast majority who retain a penis clearly don't.

Secondly, yes the disabled toilet caters to invisible disability too, but the public are expected to apply common sense. For example autism is a disability but the good majority of in old money 'high functioning' autistic people use the main loos. My own son has autism and is quite badly effected by hand dryers but I mitigate it by not using them myself, choosing quieter toilets and letting others know he may be a bit frightened and could I leave before they start using them. (I never ask them not to but lots of people offer)

Ultimately I think there's simply not enough reason for trans people to clog up an already limited resource. It's called reasonable adjustment for a reason. Just as if be embarrassed if my continent son caused someone with real physical difficulty issues, I'd hope someone who has a belief in gender identity might think twice before taking over resources designed for others.

If they are that bothered campaign for third spaces.

SerafinasGoose · 11/04/2023 15:20

Shelefttheweb · 11/04/2023 15:01

If they are suffering from gender dysphoria then that is a disability.

cPTSD is absolutely a disability. As a former sexual assault victim I suffer with this affliction, which is a serious issue for me when sharing changing and toileting facilities with natal males. I have involuntary trauma responses because my female conditioning means I instantly and on some primeval level know exactly what a natal male looks like, no matter how he dresses and presents. I have no control over these responses - PTSD has no understanding of so-called 'bigotry'.

Guess what? I don't abuse the disabled facilities.

Men need to find their own solutions, as women and disabled people once found theirs.

knittingaddict · 11/04/2023 15:24

gogohmm · 11/04/2023 13:30

We have a m-f trans woman who lives down the road, nobody bats an eyelid, certainly doesn't pass though, definitely looks male in women's clothes yet they are completely accepted and uses the disabled toilet in the pub

I'm sure that disabled people are delighted with that. 🙄

knittingaddict · 11/04/2023 15:27

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/04/2023 13:59

@CraftWeekend @SquidwardBound

Your observations about "girly hijinks" and "lesbian" transwomen expecting to engage in mostly sexual conversation connects to something I've been wondering for a while, which is whether one of the reasons (some) trans women are so aggressively targetting lesbians for sex is because they are looking at male gay culture which can be very sexualised and where venues and events are often specifically intended to facilitate casual sexual encounters, and wrongly assume that Lesbian social groups have the same dynamic and purpose.

I think they just want sex with women because that's their sexual orientation. Dressing as a women means that they now need to appeal to women who like women. Somehow that never quite works out for them. Can't imagine why.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2023 15:31

hotdiggetydog · 11/04/2023 10:28

My point is that Jk Rowling pretends to be a man whilst simultaneously criticising the reverse. It's illogical

No its logical.

I've used male names online in the past to avoid harassment and to be taken seriously, particularly in more toxic masculine environments such as gaming.

Over the years I've shown DH the difference in how men try to dismiss, belittle or talk over you online on the basis of whether you have a male or female name.

Its fascinating to watch THE SEXISM at play.

Thats not wanting to be the other sex, nor trying to change reality, thats about realising that ITS THE STEREOTYPES OF SEX FROM SOCIETY that is the problem, not our innate internal soul thats stuck in the wrong body.

JKR wanted to write without the prejudices of Harry Potter hanging over her - so she could be judged on her actual work, not her reputation. Which is actually quite admirable. She could easily have written them under her own name and it would been a hit, regardless of how shit it was. Instead she demonstrated she was a good enough writer to do it without her name behind it.

None of this had an impact on anyone else's identity or dignity or safety either.

Gender identity is built upon a foundation which REINFORCES these contraints about sex. If you want to be treated a certain way / look a certain way, you HAVE to change gender. Women must be feminine, compliant, do silly brainless giggles and not say anything above their station - they should stick to talk about prams on MN not politics - is one genuine comment thats been put out there. Otherwise they are evil witches, who are dangerous and deservig of abuse for not knowing their place as women. Men are the only ones who are of equal stature and worth of a higher level of respect.

JKR sees the sexism. She used another name to avoid the sexism, but has no deserve 'to fool' anyone, compel anyone elses speech or to be a man. Its about wanting respect for all that doesn't exist on a equal playing field for women and not disrespectful to anyone else.

This is where trans activism goes wrong. It makes demands from others, it doesn't make an effort to offer or encourage respect. It tramples over women at their expense and then says 'why don't you respect me for who I am'. The reality is people are now giving the respect on the basis of their demonstrated bad behaviour not their identity, because respect isn't given to women. Its just more males acting like males and not treating women as equals.

And that does seem to be where a lot of the desire of young girls to be men is coming from. The same sentiment as JKR but without the maturity. JKR is happy to be a woman, and sees the harm women are physically and mentally doing to themselves because of these toxic environments that girls are finding themselves and want to identify out of. JKR has the maturity to understand its the wrong solution to the same problem she has faced in her life. She knows it will cause more harms, and almost legitimise sexism by forcing women to either conform to this 'feminine ideal' that suits the interests of men, or to identify out of it - at cost because they aren't 'good enough women'. Yet simulataineous, never being able to be men cos of physical limitations.

Its demanding that women facilitiate and enable sexism and male abuse rather than tackling the actual problem - male led abuse.

JKR's actions highlight the real problem. TRAs don't like that.

Attacks on JKR are about playing the man not the ball, because they KNOW shes got a point and its all about the gender stereotypes they LIKE and want to amplify. Thats why they attack her - especially on this bit - by calling her a hypocritic.

Shes not.

AngelinaFibres · 11/04/2023 15:34

We have a transwoman in our mixed sex walking group. We are all polite and respect their wish to be called by a womans name. They don't remotely pass as female. Even half a mile away, walking across a field. Nope,that's a bloke. I find it impossible to think of them as a she and it does stop the conversation. Things we would chat about as women are off limits because there's a 6'3" bloke there. X keeps talking about how ' we girls must stick together 'we girls must look after each other'. None of us are girls ,we're all at least 50. He/ she was performing womanness until it came up in conversation that X and my husband had both worked for the same engineering company 20 years ago. They started talking about working there and X stopped 'performing ' woman and became a male engineer talking to a male engineer. The atmosphere had been really awkward . It changed totally to something much easier.When we got home my husband said ' X is great but I'll never see him as anything other than a bloke in a dress'.

nilsmousehammer · 11/04/2023 15:36

knittingaddict · 11/04/2023 15:27

I think they just want sex with women because that's their sexual orientation. Dressing as a women means that they now need to appeal to women who like women. Somehow that never quite works out for them. Can't imagine why.

Unfortunately you often find articles and threads from TW talking about how straight heterosexual women will not do because of the discomfort of knowing the woman is attracted to them as a male. Likewise bisexual women may be responding to the maleness. Homosexual females become the goal because homosexual females are exclusively attracted to other females, which is the validation of identity.

Also unfortunately it means explaining to homosexual females that they must learn to unlearn their 'genital prejudice' and 'vagina fetishism', 'learn to cope' and 'stop selfishly prioritising their own orgasms' and ... well. Provide sex, whether they wish to or not, because they have a job to do. Kind of like a therapeutic unpaid sex worker. The abusiveness and dehumanisation is off the charts.

Hence why many lesbian groups have now gone underground like the invitation only women events mentioned up thread.

hotdiggetydog · 11/04/2023 15:37

AngelinaFibres · 11/04/2023 15:34

We have a transwoman in our mixed sex walking group. We are all polite and respect their wish to be called by a womans name. They don't remotely pass as female. Even half a mile away, walking across a field. Nope,that's a bloke. I find it impossible to think of them as a she and it does stop the conversation. Things we would chat about as women are off limits because there's a 6'3" bloke there. X keeps talking about how ' we girls must stick together 'we girls must look after each other'. None of us are girls ,we're all at least 50. He/ she was performing womanness until it came up in conversation that X and my husband had both worked for the same engineering company 20 years ago. They started talking about working there and X stopped 'performing ' woman and became a male engineer talking to a male engineer. The atmosphere had been really awkward . It changed totally to something much easier.When we got home my husband said ' X is great but I'll never see him as anything other than a bloke in a dress'.

What a lovely story of an inclusive and non judgemental group

JacquelinePot · 11/04/2023 15:41

HarrysStyle · Today 13:29

Have they had their penis removed? I think that would be key for me

In spite of what Nursie thinks, a boy without a winkle is just that - a boy without a winkle

Blackadder II - Bells - Boy without a winkle

https://youtu.be/h1dxZ8srDM4

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