Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

No.

What a lovely story of an inclusive and non judgemental group

Oh stop with your judgemental attitude

I am presuming you are an adult and you have grown up and realised that people are allowed to make judgements should they so wish?

I do often wonder what the world would be like if we made no judgements at all like some people seem to want us to do

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t expect the water to perceive the horse as a cow.

Why should we include a man in conversations? Why should we put up with caricature?

Fuck him.

Exactly, @00100001 - I don’t think anyone has a good given right to be included in everything! I am excluded from plenty of things, and I am more than capable of looking at those groups and realising that the needs of the people in that group matter more than any desire I might have, to be admitted to the group.

For example, let’s say I would love to play in a really good orchestra. First violin, preferably - but sadly I only play the violin to a grade 1 level (and even that was decades ago), so I know that I would spoil the whole thing for everyone else, as I struggled with the music - I would drastically slow rehearsals down, and pull down the performance of the whole orchestra. So my wanting to join the orchestra must not outweigh the need of the orchestra to have members who are all at a similar level of performance.

I can see that I don’t belong in a high quality orchestra, so I don’t try to force my way in, or act the victim for not being allowed in, nor do I attempt to bring down the whole orchestra, because if I can’t join, then no-one should be able to.

I guess what I am saying is that inclusivity is a good thing, but is not only THE good thing - and groups should not have to be forced to be inclusive of anyone and everyone, to the detriment of the group.

We are all adults - if I really did want to play in an orchestra, but wasn’t good enough for my local amateur one, I could start my own - which is why the selfishness and entitledness of the trans rights activists, with their demands to be included everywhere, even when this is clearly damaging to women and girls, absolutely sickens me.

Interesting question. I know a Transwoman who has been quietly living that way for decades, continuing to do the stereotypically masculine job they did before transitioning, which requires stereotypically masculine clothing day to day. Also takes part in a stereotypically masculine sport. Does wear feminine clothes on occasion but doesn't pass especially well.

This thread has made me really think about how I think of them, which I've never stopped to consider before, and it's definitely a Transwoman.

I know two men 'living as women' whatever that means. I see neither as female. Neither of them seems completely emotionally/mentally stable. I refer to them by their new names but will never call them she. They are men. They have no idea how it feels to be a woman, to have a female body, to experience the world through a woman's eyes.

Gosh, it's almost like they don't understand what it is actually like to be a woman....

Those bleating on about inclusion usually ignore the fact that allowing men into women's spaces excludes women who don't want them there, or who for religious reasons can't share the space with them.

Sports, single sex spaces etc. aren't there as validation tools for inadequate men, they are deliberately exclusive for a good reason.

You start to realise so much of their perception of womanhood is based on stereotypes, and even worse, some porn fuelled fantasy. They are dressing as a caricature of woman, and getting angry when we don't welcome them into the fold. How arrogant.

Germaine Green did a wonderful interview that was posted on here a while ago where she outlined the differences between femaleness and femininity. I admit until I heard this it didn't fully click with me that this is what's happening.

Femaleness is the biologically driven experiences of women - periods, pregnancy, breastfeeding, menopause etc. No, not all women will experience all of these, but ONLY women experience them.
But she also talked about how many of these are quite shameful for us at times and kept hidden. Think of a young girl and her first periods, she's probably feeling dirty and a bit ashamed of her body. And think about how breastfeeding is seen as something a bit grubby in public (and yet that is their actual function), but we regularly see perky cute breasts on display to advertise everything (because that's what men like to look at).

Femininity is the hair, the nails, the dressing up, the make up, the cultural and behavioural expectations of women in society. Women removing body hair to be seen as more attractive to men etc. But this is all the role play, the dress up, nothing to do with biology. And now we're being told that THIS is the real thing, the authentic part of womanhood, precisely because it's the part that can be appropriated by men.

Her interview really outlined to me the disconnect between our biological processes (which are the authentic thing, but which we hide away because they unpalatable to men) and dress up and cosplay of femininity (which is usually for the benefit of men) which is now being used against us.

*Greer

This.

I think we should respect transwomen as transwomen, part of the rich diversity of human life, not try and pretend they are women. It's not kind to transwomen to pretend we think they are women when everyone knows they're not, in fact I think it is patronising and disrespectful, treating them like children while the 'adults' all play along and smile indulgently. And of course it is certainly not kind to women, for all the reasons others have mentioned, sports, prisons etc.

Some people believe in gender. Some people believe that the word "woman" can have a meaning other than adult human female. I do not agree with that belief - the concept of "woman" as an abstract soul-like concept doesn't make sense to me.

I used to think there was no harm in playing along with most transwomen most of the time, and politely respecting their different belief (same as I never voice my opinion that heaven doesn't exist to a recently bereaved Christian). I'm sure they are mostly perfectly pleasant people trying to live their lives in a way that doesn't impact mine. But I can't carry on with that "be kind" fiction now that I've seen how it is being taken to its logical conclusion (TWAW literally and in all ways) in a way that harms females.

Exactly that. I by choice have only been seen naked by 1 male, my husband. I'm not religious so not covered under that protected characteristic (not that it seems to matter, being a man and having wants appears to override everything else] I am just very private.

I chose leisure centres and gyms that have individual cubicles, I ask for a female doctor/nurse, I would if needed request female carers..... if that option weren't available to me, if I can not be assured that the person seeing my nakedness is female then I just won't use the service, I will self exclude from medical check up, smear tests, mammograms etc and take the risk of getting Ill. I know that others will consider me stupid for that, but that's how much it means to me to have that level of privacy and decisions about my body.

anyone remember when the Lenny Henry - it's because I am a black man isn't it Sketches from the early 2000's?

When he auditions for Orphan Annie and is told no starts ranting that its because is is black that he is rejected.

lights come up and there he is on opening night singing 'the sun will come out tomorrow in a red wig and red dress'

its all coming true,

What a ridiculous comparison

You're right, it's bizarre how far this has gotten, given that we don't pander to other delusions this way.

Can you imagine a clinician who could only affirm someone with body dysmorphia and associated anorexia - yes yes yes, you're too fat, keep starving yourself. It's ridiculous, not to mention unethical.

So why does everyone have to affirm gender dysphoria, especially if it disadvantages us?

It's really not. Equality prevents someone being excluded from a place/ role/ experience on the basis of their protected characteristic. In this instance, the reason the PP cannot be in the orchestra is they're not good enough - they are not in the pool of potential candidates. In the same way, TW should be excluded from women's spaces. Not because they're trans, but because they're men.

No

Someone tries to be considerate and you try and spin that negatively.

No considerate would be using the provision provided for them. The male faculties. Forcing their way into the disabled over the ladies is not kind.

lol no way.

It brought to mind this trans ballet dancer.

https://twitter.com/TheLaurenChen/status/1645844548252475392

There is no way on gods earth that if this was a female they would be applauded.

Sir Thomas "Terfy" More was right, though....

@highfidelity

I suppose if I met a trans woman I would address her as she? Respect her choice to wear womens clothing. But no I would never see them as biological women. And I would not entertain them talking about periods etc..

It’s not considerate to force yourself into a space that belongs to others - in fact, it’s extremely inconsiderate.