How important is it that sports need to be separated by sex or gender? Why not do what they do in boxing?

[herdingcatss]

Hear me out.. I'm all for inclusion and diversity as a whole. but I'm not in favour of transwomen taking part in women's sports as they do have unfair physical advantages etc etc. They even play the same game differently (google transwoman volleyball player). I do get that and believe that if you have sports separated by physical biology than that is what it should be, and gender identity shouldn't come into it.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Personally, I think that we should think about doing away with separating team sports by sex or gender altogether for a new approach - for example maybe do what they do in boxing - ie: match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other, or to work together in a team. TBH I don't know much about boxing so i could be wrong, but from what I understand, they match players in terms of whether they're lightweight, middleweight or heavyweight, to make it equal (I know boxing is still separated by sex but this is why I'm focusing on teams instead).

If we have teams set up for the same weight category, then they have the option of focusing on obtaining the skills they need as a whole, and can bring in people based on their strongest skills in the game, whether they are men, women, trans etc. Then teams from the same categories could play each other in tournaments etc and it wouldn't matter what gender/sex they are made up of.

So basically it's an overhaul to the way traditional sports is run. But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!

Anyway do you think this is a potential solution to the issue? Or have I missed something major? I don't play sports but if anyone does, I'd love to know what you think of this approach, and whether mixed teams of equal weights would work instead of being based on biology (or gender).

I'm not sure where the 17 has come from??

There are 17 weight classes in boxing @herdingcatss you used the weight divisions in boxing as the basis for your argument, Nimbostratus100 was just playing out your argument to it's logical conclusion.

The idea that the whole team would be within a weight category is even more infeasible for rugby, where within a single team you need big slow ones (props, hooker), big tall ones (flankers), small nippy ones (half-backs) ones who run like the wind (wings) etc.

Don't be discouraged by the comments here OP, it's a good idea to explore, if only to really lay out why weight classes don't work for sports. Even boxing is segregated first by sex before weight classes are introduced.

The only realistic solution in the real world is for men who claim to be women to fuck off out of female sports and accept the limitations their chosen 'identity' and that they are still subject to the same rules as every other man on the planet.

Only a fool would go along with the nonsense that's it's suddenly 'progressive' to let some men into women's sports because otherwise they get hurt feelings by having to face the reality of their sex.

I don't know if progress is mixed sex sports teams, i was just putting an idea out there. It could well not be,

This wouldn't work as you would still have to have a male ,female ratio. Even super TWAW USA Rowing bans transwomen from mixed events as it disadvantages the men in the other boats, if they just have cervix havers on their boat and not a couple of extra men. They let transwomen compete against the women though as women don't count.

especially if there is a social impact on society as a whole, which is of more interest to me tbh, not specific sports itself. That's where I'm coming from.

But this really isn’t the ‘social issue’ you’d imagine it was from reading feverish tweets about the need to reorganise sport to fit the wants of trans women.

Or at least not in the way you’re imagining. The ‘social impact on society’ as a whole come from the deep seated patriarchal values that mean everyone is desperate to reorganise things to suit a small bit noisy group of male humans. It’s the values that decide that women and girls just don’t matter. In sport. In society in general.

There is simply no need to ‘find a way forward’ because the goal of allowing excluding women and girls is not desirable.

Football.

England's women's team are internationally FAR more successful than England men at present.

Mix these 2 teams in any way, by weight, by feelings, by belief in God, by nose hair length- whatever.

Do you honestly think there would be a single female on this new "mixed" team?

Theyd stick a long wig on David Beckham and drag him out of retirement along with Gary Lineker. I guarantee they'd be chosen to represent "the girls" ahead of any of the current Lionesses.

Womens teams exist to give women, us c*nty kind, the chance to compete of a fair playing field, whatever the sport.

Shove a male in there, irrespective of how he identifies, and you've wiped the entire notion of fairness away.

As for that stupid "inclusion", you've just EXCLUDED at least one female to give the male the spot she should have filled.

Does that feel like winning to you?

The way I was thinking was for teams to be based on weight categories. so all the players of that team will be of that weight level. Obviously most women would probably be in the lower weight categories alongside lower weight men,

No, all you will end up with is teams of smaller lower weight men. The USA Women's Football Team were World Champions and were comprehensively beaten by a school boy's team, I would imagine some of those boys were the same weight and height as some of the women.

while the heavier weights categories would probably be dominated by men, and transwomen will go where they fit in terms of their weight. And that's fine as matches would be based on categories. You wouldn't have a lightweight team go up against a heavy weight, it would have to be against another lightweight.

Yes the heavier teams would be all men.

So both low and high weight teams would be men, that's inclusion for you folks!

I do get the point made earlier that this approach could put a lot of women off to begin with, especially if they have to play alongside men, and that it would be dangerous for them if they are tackled by a man even in the same category it so I guess its probably not a realistic solution in the real world, at least not for contact sports.

It's not a realistic solution full stop, real world or not, contact sports or not.

Trans people CAN play sport both amateur and professional they just need to play in their biological sex category, not difficult is it?

OP if trans people don’t want to play in the correct teams, i.e those with people of their actual sex, then they need to start their own team/games/sports.
Just because a few noisy men want to force themselves into women’s sports, it doesn’t mean that we have to allow them to.
There are perfectly valid reasons, as mentioned upthread, for men to stay away from women’s sports and we need to stop kowtowing to this.
Let them figure it out for themselves. Even having female and open categories, wouldn’t be enough for some.

Even having female and open categories, wouldn’t be enough for some.

Well, no, because they are mediocre and won't make the grade in the mens/open category so they want in to the female category.

As OneMorePlant has rightly pointed out - even if you can match men and women for weight and height (which is quite difficult to do), men will still run faster, lift heavier and punch harder.
That's what going through male puberty gets you - a much stronger body. No hormones and surgery is going to change that.
Also, this is not women's problem to solve. The third category has been given as an option for a few years now - and has been shouted down as mean etc. because then TW don't get the validation of being in something that is exclusively for women.

Bonkers idea

Just let women compete with other women

Divide it up after if need be but keep sex class together first

OP, do you believe that a man and a woman of the same weight, would therefor have the same strength, same reach, same leg length, same experience of pregnancy and periods, same bone density etc? Because what you suggest hinges either on this belief, or you just don’t care about women always losing out to men.

Or have I missed something major?

Yes, you have missed something major: Women are not small men.

Yes, you have missed something major: Women's sport exists to serve the interests of women. It does not need to be overhauled to suit the interests of a few men, who could be accommodated FAR more straightforwardly by rebreanding the men's category as an open category.

Oh and same hip structure of course..

Trans people CAN play sport both amateur and professional they just need to play in their biological sex category, not difficult is it?

the only exclusion going on is:

1. An attempt to exclude women and girls by letting men and boys compete in their place - excluding them by unfairness, increasing the risks of injury and many other things too.
2. Some men choosing to self-exclude from the male category - either by deciding it upsets them to have to compete in that category or by them making choices that make them uncompetitive against other biological males (hormones etc).

The latter is not the dreadful social justice issue TRAs want us to believe. People (at all levels) make choices in relation to the trade offs between sport and lifestyle. How many talented and promising swimmers do you think drop out of competitive swimming because they don’t want to get up at 4am several days a week?

There are choices to be made. And the lifestyle sacrifices required are generally greater the higher up the elite sporting ladder you climb.

Similarly, loads of people have to drop down several levels in sport because of injury. Happens all the time. A mental health condition or gender identity disorder that you feel must be treated with transition is going to just be one of those things that means you might have to drop down a few levels of competitions and put your Olympic gold medal dreams to rest. These things happen and, sad as it may be for individuals, that’s just sport. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It’s not a reason to decide you should compete as a biological male in the female category.

You know what is really tiring @herdingcatss? Women having to defend and justify spaces, services and sports to be for women only, not men however they identify just because some selfish men want to take them away from women and some equally selfish women want to give them away.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen
Thanks for your insight. And sharing your more detailed knowledge.

My DDad was a racing fan, hence I had an awareness that mares and fillies races existed, and ladies day wasn't just about hats!
But it was trans thread and a general knowledge that male mammals are generally bigger and strong than females that made me look up entry requirements for the Royal Ascot meet.

There's no guarantee that transwomen will use the open category though. If they claim that they are women they will still insist on using the women's category anyway. And I don't think women will want to use the open category either as it will put them up against men.

If they were really women they would self exclude from women's sport.

No-one should be in the women's category if they've been though a male puberty. It gives an unfair advantage. All the factors have been explained very well by various people on this thread. What bit don't you get?

Women won't use the women's category either, as they'll be up against men. They'll just be men who say they're women, but they'll still be men.

What part of this are you finding so hard to understand?

Well then that's their choice. Under current proposals, there will be two categories open for transwomen: open, or men's. If transwoman doesn't want to compete in either of those, then they won't be able to play as they have self-excluded.

No one is excluded from playing, but you have to play safely and fairly. If you're not willing to do that, you can't play.

If transwomen don't want to use the Open category, then that is 100% their choice.
They certainly should not be in the female category. They are not female.

And they can insist all they want that they should compete in the women's category but the sports bodies need to say no! And increasingly, they are.

There's no guarantee that transwomen will use the open category though. If they claim that they are women they will still insist on using the women's category anyway. And I don't think women will want to use the open category either as it will put them up against men.

They can insist all they like but Sporting Bodies are now finding their spines and saying NO to TW in female sports. TW in the female category is pitting women against men, what are you struggling to understand here?

If TW don't want to go in the Open category that is their choice, they have that choice and if they really want to play sport they will take it, if they don't that's on them.