How important is it that sports need to be separated by sex or gender? Why not do what they do in boxing?

[herdingcatss]

Hear me out.. I'm all for inclusion and diversity as a whole. but I'm not in favour of transwomen taking part in women's sports as they do have unfair physical advantages etc etc. They even play the same game differently (google transwoman volleyball player). I do get that and believe that if you have sports separated by physical biology than that is what it should be, and gender identity shouldn't come into it.

But when it comes to team sports, surely there could be a new approach that could help solve the issue of including transwomen and where to put them? Otherwise the option is to have them muscle their way into women's sports which is obvs unfair to women, and it's not realistic to have lots of separate teams to cater for different identities.

Personally, I think that we should think about doing away with separating team sports by sex or gender altogether for a new approach - for example maybe do what they do in boxing - ie: match people by weight and/or skill to compete with each other, or to work together in a team. TBH I don't know much about boxing so i could be wrong, but from what I understand, they match players in terms of whether they're lightweight, middleweight or heavyweight, to make it equal (I know boxing is still separated by sex but this is why I'm focusing on teams instead).

If we have teams set up for the same weight category, then they have the option of focusing on obtaining the skills they need as a whole, and can bring in people based on their strongest skills in the game, whether they are men, women, trans etc. Then teams from the same categories could play each other in tournaments etc and it wouldn't matter what gender/sex they are made up of.

So basically it's an overhaul to the way traditional sports is run. But it's just an idea as I think we need a new way of looking at sports in society, to move the subject on, as the discussion seems to be at a stalemate at the moment with little progress going on imo. It's tiring!

Anyway do you think this is a potential solution to the issue? Or have I missed something major? I don't play sports but if anyone does, I'd love to know what you think of this approach, and whether mixed teams of equal weights would work instead of being based on biology (or gender).

Male people simply wouldn’t be eligible for the women’s (Female) category. No matter how much they want to. They’re objectively not female.

Unless you are worried they’ll lie and cheat to get into it. But that’s a different problem.

It doesn’t matter than women won’t want to use the open category. It’s still open to everyone. Female people can compete against other female people for fairness and safety reasons.

there are 17 weight catagories in boxing.

There's no guarantee that transwomen will use the open category though. If they claim that they are women they will still insist on using the women's category anyway.

Good grief, why is that anyone else's problem but their own? If they are so committed to using sport as a means of validating a gender identity (despite the fact that women's sport is a sex-based category for which 'gender' is irrelevant), why should an entire sporting establishment (for whom sport is about sport not gender validation) twist itself into circles to accommodate them?

(And of course women won't use the open category. It isn't being created for them. It is being created for trans women)

Good grief, why is that anyone else's problem but their own?

Yes @herdingcatss why are you so concerned about TW cutting off their nose to spite their face? What is your agenda here?

but there would be no women in any sport at all, as at every weight category, men would out perform them, and get ALL the places in every team, and every competition

For an example of how well this suggestion would work in practice, US rowing is instructive. Under the US rules, transwomen can row as women.

There is 1 exception.

They cannot row as women in mixed races (which have half men and half women in each boat) because pitting a boat of 4 men and 4 women against a boat of 4 men and 4 transwomen would be unfair.

Unfairness is not permitted if it adversely affects men.

Don't you think it would be demeaning to women?
Men could retain all their own categories and prizes but women would be the only ones who would in reality be affected.
There would be less female role models for half the population -would girls be inspired to do sport if half the prizes were being won by older, past their prime men?
If there's one thing that trans participation has already taught us it is that whatever the age and physical condition of a man they have no qualms taking the prize away from a 20 year old woman who has outplayed all other women in her category.

Let's face it, the only way to please the small group of male athletes absolutely determined to validate themselves using female sports, is for females to just hand over women's sports and become smiling, applauding backdrops.

Is it ethical? Should that happen to stroke this small group of male people's egos? Are female humans merely support animals who can only have stuff until/unless real humans want it? And has the 1600s popped back while no one was looking?

OP, I'm going to assume you have posted in good faith.

Can you explain why you think it is worth going to so much effort to rewrite the rules of sporting competitions, just to include men who choose to present in stereotypically feminine ways?

It's not women's problem and it's not for women to accommodate people with gender distress. Other solutions must be found.

Trans people insist on competing against real women because that guarantees that they win. Lia Thomas is a.case in point -.ranked 450 or so in the college men's ratings but he is no 1 in the women's ratings.

Another point to note (apologies if I've missed someone else already mentioning) is that sports with weight classes/restrictions are absolutely FULL of people with eating disorders, right down to amateur level.
Even people not actually competing know what their weight class would be and in my experience basically everybody is always trying to drop down a weight class.

Male and female, not just the women, men suffer from this too although we talk about it less... weight classes fuck everybody up even competing/participating at very amateur level.

Introducing weight categories into sports where its not actually necessary would be utter madness.

Teenage girls would also flat out refuse to do sport ever again, when we should be trying to increase their participation.

Nice try OP but that would be a fucking disaster on so many levels.

God yes.

What teen would agreed to be weighed in front of the class in order to be paired up with a tennis opponent?

even if the weigh in wasn’t public, imagine how humiliating it would be to get put in the ‘fat kids’ group if you were a bit bigger than average.

Because we all know that whatever the group was called, the kids would all perceive it that way.

My inner teen is cringing.

I've already posted this on another thread but I think this one might be an even better fit. I've nrtft so forgive me if it's already here. Youtuber Jill Bearup (she does stage fighting too) posted this short, apparently the bones of men and women of the same height and build are different. Men's bones are bigger and therefore harder to break than women's. So identically sized opposite sexed opponents would not be equal.

https://youtube.com/shorts/fxgxKjHptC0?feature=share

I believe that bones are the attachment sites for the muscles. It would seem possible that bigger bones > bigger attachment > bigger muscles. This is speculation on my part and I'm possibly wrong.

That's s lot of effort and disruption for men's boners.

I love Jill! I binged on her content when she was first outed for her rampant tervery and then forgot to go back, so thank you for the reminder!

You're not wrong.

Proportionally bigger muscles, different proportions of the types of muscle fibre, different lung and heart sizes, different hip angles (which affects gait efficiency) .... a 70kg male competitor is not a match for a 70kg female one for many, many reasons.

I’m taller than my husband. Even if we weighed the same ( he’s heavier than me), he is much stronger than me. And faster. And he’s much more aggressive in sport too. There’s no way I would want to have to try to play sport with him. I’m not an idiot.

for one person sports look up Avi Silverberg to see why this wouldn't work.

As for team sports your thoughts has just decimated most of any sports woman's asperations to win anything. Have a look at the American national football team vs 15 yr old boys.

Also look at the amount of males that are well past there sporting prime winning female events, cycling, running, weightlifting etc.