What is a woman, by modern standards and definitions?

[mamakoukla]

Outright - I’m a sex not gender woman. But I’ve reached the point of so what exactly is a woman, as defined by inclusivity to gender based identification? If woman is gender-based, what is a woman by that definition?

On another note, more people than you might think do seem to believe in "boy brain" and "girl brain" on some level.

At group level there are differences. Most notable differences are in aggression and violence/ criminality.

The problem is that there is such a huge overlap between typical male characteristics and female ones that the link on an individual level is so weak as to be meaningless. Eg if you saw a bunch of test scores on various things like map-reading, empathy, etc, you would be highly unlikely to be able to accurately predict which came from male or female people. There is no one characteristic, or group of characteristics, that are unique to either sex.

Emoji says men can get pregnant now.

🫃

@AmuseBish given my own personal definition of XX = woman, Maya F reads clearly to me. I’m playing devil’s advocate trying to understand how other definitions work. Robin W just makes me ask more questions eg “So the sensible answer is to recognise that “What is a woman?” is a complex question for a small proportion of society. “ surely it’s a complex question for all of society, regardless of whether they acknowledge it or not.

@nepeta Not a dog whistle but a genuine please tell me because I cannot figure it out.

I think it's to do with men telling you you're doing it wrong, that you're bad at parking and stuff.

If men tell you to smile, cheer up, or make desperate attempts to get you to talk to them, then you're a woman.

I truly don't believe trans women are women because men don't give them the same hassle, they don't criticise their driving or sit next to them on an empty bus. They clearly aren't women in the way I'm a woman.

UN Women tweeted this same thing some years ago, as if nobody can define 'woman', so everybody can be one! Which would make the category completely meaningless.

The new definitions of 'woman' are crucially dependent on most old-fashioned women (with female bodies) to not redefine themselves as perhaps nonbinary constellation-gender. To have something to transition TO is absolutely essential, and that 'to' is clearly linked to things associated with the female body and the female sex role.

This angers me, this double-erasure. First I'm not allowed to define myself as a woman because I am an adult and female, then I'm not allowed not to belong to that re-defined group when it's necessary for validation of others (in sports, say).

Found the full Shon Faye quote:

'woman is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time'

Glad we’ve cleared that up.

There are some non-trans male trans activists who argue that you are a woman if hetersexual men whistle at you or harass you sexually. This would be a male definition, of course.

@mamakoukla

@nepeta Not a dog whistle but a genuine please tell me because I cannot figure it out.

It's usually left undefined by trans activists. The most common answer is that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman, which doesn't tell us anything about what 'woman' that people identify as might actually mean. So it is circular and empty of any evidence.

Some define it as feeling 'feminine', but because 'feminine' is very hard to define, too, unless we use sexist stereotypes, this one is ultimately empty of evidence too, and when it is not, it would force all women to wear dresses, makeup, high heels, have long hair, be afraid of mice, be bad at maths etc.

So not good for feminism.

The definition of 'woman' as an adult human female has the advantage that this is to a much greater degree something others can verify. If 'woman' is just an idea, it's impossible to define the group it applies to, it's impossible for that group to fight for the shared political issues it has, and it's also impossible to explain why certain people in Afghanistan are stripped of their rights and others are not.

There are some non-trans male trans activists who argue that you are a woman if hetersexual men whistle at you or harass you sexually.

Ok, at least that's an attempt... as long as we know who is a heterosexual man. How do I find out if I or anyone else is one?!

That's just a woman with short hair! Why have you decided that's a man?

Here's the biological definition of 'woman':

A woman is an adult human being who has or has had the ability to produce large gametes or who is on the developmental path towards producing large gametes.

Perhaps we need biological men to define what being a man is, then try and apply the same process to women? So if it's biology for them, then so it would be for us.

Good shout

Hey! I’m not personally responsible for assigning gender to emoji!

I’m a bit shocked to discover that a woman is, by definition, ‘loose’!

The gender-assigning midwives must have to do regular training updates what with all the looseness and shiftiness.

Oh right! Sorry! Thought it was just a different haircut!

How does law define ‘woman’? Sex and gender are protected characteristics in some countries; how do you protect something if it isn’t defined?

That’s because you are a normal, sensible human being, living in a normal, regular, universe!

Adult human female.

Any other person identifying as this needs a prefix or suffix to highlight that they are not an adult human female.

In the EQ10 (UK anti discrimination legislation) a woman is defined as a ‘female of any age’.

In the GRA of 2004 it became possible for some adult human males to get a bit of paper that says they are female (and vice versa) but no one is allowed to ask to see said paper.

For some strange reason this always makes me think about that special magic underwear that Mormons have…

@EmotionalSupportHyena si the law does not have a concrete definition of woman or female? How can an undefined characteristic be defended? I’m probably being very daft and missing some detail

I don’t think it occurred to the lawmakers at the time that a definition was necessary? They obviously didn’t anticipate a land grab of Women’s spaces by male-women!

There is a bit of case law that defines biological sex from the 1970s, Corbett v Corbett (April Ashley and husband, marriage was annulled due to Ashley not being female).

Of course, transactivists claim it’s outdated.

Sex Matters on Corbett v Corbett:

https://sex-matters.org/posts/case-law/corbett-v-corbett/

Lots of trans women activists are also claiming they are female not just women. Anyone understand the logic there? What with female being the large gamete producing type of human …