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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transmen

281 replies

Questioningfolke · 05/04/2023 09:58

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

OP posts:
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/04/2023 14:36

Wonderingiforifnot · 07/04/2023 13:04

Butch lesbians are also challenged by GC people who think they're men or trans women and try to send them to the men's toilets. So by your logic, GC people are to blame.

It's people not minding their business who are to blame.

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Nope, you've missed the point. Two points actually.

Firstly, trans women typically don't dress butch. That's kind of the point. Whether you think they've got a sexist belief that their preference for feminine clothes makes them actually women, or whether you think society's expectations of womanhood makes them feel obliged to adopt feminine dress to signal their womanhood, the net result is the same...butch transwomen are a tiny minority of a tiny minority. So no one is going to accuse a butch woman of being a trans woman. They might assume she's a transman and (if they subscribe to gender ideology) feel she should be in the gents. They might assume she's just a bog standard man with no special identity. But of all the genders on offer, trans woman seems the least likely assumption. The apocryphal "woman unfairly accused of being a tranwoman" actually would be gender conforming but physically masculine-looking woman.

Secondly, before trans activism introduced the possibility that a woman in a woman's space might actually be male, no one would be accusing anyone. So yes, whether that accuser is TRA or GC, the situation is still a result of TRAs inserting males into female spaces.

MissPollysFitDolly · 07/04/2023 14:37

Observed male at birth = men's toilets
Observed female at birth = women's toilets

How well do transmen actually 'pass' in real life anyway? We just need to get used to the idea of bearded ladies, if you see someone with a full beard and lots of tattoos take a second closer look before you pass comment. I'm sure they'll mostly be as easy to pick out as transwomen.

MissPollysFitDolly · 07/04/2023 14:40

If you see them in the women's toilet that is!

Happylittlechicken · 07/04/2023 14:41

Wonderingiforifnot · 07/04/2023 14:27

So can/ should trans men use the female toilets?
Are women safe from trans men in toilets?

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Yes. Why would women not be safe from females with a trans identity using the female facilities? They are female after all. It’s males with a trans identity that do not belong there, what with not being female and all….

JustSpeculation · 07/04/2023 14:51

Any safe spaces men may need are not needed on the basis of sex. At least, I can't think of any, and I've been a man all my life, except for the bit when I was a boy. So I can't see it really matters to men which toilets transmen use. The worst that could happen to men would be mild embarrassment. The situation is not symmetric.

Wonderingiforifnot · 07/04/2023 15:17

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/04/2023 14:36

Nope, you've missed the point. Two points actually.

Firstly, trans women typically don't dress butch. That's kind of the point. Whether you think they've got a sexist belief that their preference for feminine clothes makes them actually women, or whether you think society's expectations of womanhood makes them feel obliged to adopt feminine dress to signal their womanhood, the net result is the same...butch transwomen are a tiny minority of a tiny minority. So no one is going to accuse a butch woman of being a trans woman. They might assume she's a transman and (if they subscribe to gender ideology) feel she should be in the gents. They might assume she's just a bog standard man with no special identity. But of all the genders on offer, trans woman seems the least likely assumption. The apocryphal "woman unfairly accused of being a tranwoman" actually would be gender conforming but physically masculine-looking woman.

Secondly, before trans activism introduced the possibility that a woman in a woman's space might actually be male, no one would be accusing anyone. So yes, whether that accuser is TRA or GC, the situation is still a result of TRAs inserting males into female spaces.

Show quote history
  1. "no one is going to accuse a butch woman of being a trans woman" - this has happened! No matter how many paragraphs you've written before you make this claim
  1. Talk to women who are gender non conforming about life in the past. They have been accused of being men and beaten up. "trans activism" isn't to blame.
nilsmousehammer · 07/04/2023 15:21

Women wanting female only spaces are not beating anyone up, (activists are breaking women's skulls though), and giving up and accepting that male people can control their boundaries is not going to happen.

Wonderingiforifnot · 07/04/2023 15:21

Page 8 and it's still not clear where trans men go to the toilet.

Lots of assumptions about what trans people wear, the need to smile at anyone harassing you in the loo and how easy it is to tell what gender someone is, but no consensus. The closest to agreement seems to be that they'd use the woman's unless they frightened anyone by being too manly and passing (although you can always totally tell) in which they'd be sent to the men's.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 16:08

Wonderingiforifnot · 07/04/2023 15:21

Page 8 and it's still not clear where trans men go to the toilet.

Lots of assumptions about what trans people wear, the need to smile at anyone harassing you in the loo and how easy it is to tell what gender someone is, but no consensus. The closest to agreement seems to be that they'd use the woman's unless they frightened anyone by being too manly and passing (although you can always totally tell) in which they'd be sent to the men's.

THIRD SPACES ARE AN OPTION. I don’t know how many times we’ve said this already but it’s A LOT.

Surely you can’t want us boring-old-cunty-women to be in charge of rule-making for transmen?

No males in female spaces is the bit we care about.

The rest is for transmen, transwomen and boring-old-penis-men to negotiate between them.

We aren’t your collective Mother, tasked with sorting out everything for everyone.

We are asserting our own boundaries, which is that single sex spaces for female people be reserved for actual female people.

If some female people want to grow beards and not use the female single sex facilities, that’s fine, but it’s not our job to negotiate with the penishavers on behalf of transmen.

DojaPhat · 07/04/2023 16:13

There is a very particular demographic who have made this their raise d'etre. This very specific group of women absolutely love involving themselves in people's business, they get off on 'policing' others. The psyche of this particular demographic will never cease to amaze me.

nilsmousehammer · 07/04/2023 16:19

EmotionalSupportHyena · 07/04/2023 16:08

THIRD SPACES ARE AN OPTION. I don’t know how many times we’ve said this already but it’s A LOT.

Surely you can’t want us boring-old-cunty-women to be in charge of rule-making for transmen?

No males in female spaces is the bit we care about.

The rest is for transmen, transwomen and boring-old-penis-men to negotiate between them.

We aren’t your collective Mother, tasked with sorting out everything for everyone.

We are asserting our own boundaries, which is that single sex spaces for female people be reserved for actual female people.

If some female people want to grow beards and not use the female single sex facilities, that’s fine, but it’s not our job to negotiate with the penishavers on behalf of transmen.

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That ^^

It has actually been answered multiple times, you just didn't agree with the answer.

Female people need female only spaces. Everything else is a different problem.

twelly · 07/04/2023 16:37

The problem of women's space has only become a problem because of the current trend - there was not an issue before hand. My concern is that this ideology has allowed people to adopt a sex/gender of their choice which then has caused this issue. The mobilisation of large numbers of teenagers who in my view are being manipulated has made the situation worse. I hope this trend passes but until it does I believe if you born male you use male facilities and if you are born female you use female faculties.

Fieldofgreycorn · 07/04/2023 16:42

Happylittlechicken · 07/04/2023 14:41

Yes. Why would women not be safe from females with a trans identity using the female facilities? They are female after all. It’s males with a trans identity that do not belong there, what with not being female and all….

Show quote history

female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

Research has shown that female to male trans people develop a similar pattern to males of violent crime.

Had you forgotten?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Bienemajas · 07/04/2023 16:54

Talk to women who are gender non conforming about life in the past. They have been accused of being men and beaten up.

But not by women wanting female only safe spaces!

All sorts of people might have been 'beaten up' for being different - but that has nothing to do with women's need for safe female spaces.

Bienemajas · 07/04/2023 16:56

Talk to women who are gender non conforming about life in the past. They have been accused of being men and beaten up. "trans activism" isn't to blame.

What sort of crimes? Burglary? Theft? Or sexual attacks?

Bienemajas · 07/04/2023 16:56

Research has shown that female to male trans people develop a similar pattern to males of violent crime.

What sort of crimes? Burglary? Theft? Or sexual attacks?

Fieldofgreycorn · 07/04/2023 17:14

What sort of crimes? Burglary? Theft? Or sexual attacks?

It didn’t specify, just as it didn’t for male to females.

nilsmousehammer · 07/04/2023 17:19

Distinct lack of any cases coming to court or into the press of TM perpetrated sexual assault though.

borntobequiet · 07/04/2023 17:52

Freddy McConnell making absolutely no sense on World at One today, about 34 min in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001kpzf
(Johnny Dymond using “assigned at birth” but I’ll assume that’s from ignorance, I emailed to say “don’t”.)

World at One - 07/04/2023 - BBC Sounds

Forty-five minutes of news, analysis and comment, with Jonny Dymond.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001kpzf

Apocalypticdays · 07/04/2023 18:03

The transman in my work uses the womens toilet since she is female. I don't think my male colleagues would be too impressed with a female colleague walking in on them using the urinal, which you have to walk past to get to the cubicle.
I don't think many do pass tbh. It's partly why I find it difficult to say he, my colleague is very petite and in no way masculine other than some facial hair from hormones. They are definitely not physically stronger than me nor are they in possession of a penis.
They are female so the women's toilet is appropriate.

Bienemajas · 07/04/2023 18:07

The transman in my work uses the womens toilet since she is female. I don't think my male colleagues would be too impressed with a female colleague walking in on them using the urinal

The female colleague using the urinal Grin

ditalini · 07/04/2023 23:19

Fieldofgreycorn · 07/04/2023 23:13

Show quote history

These are all sex by deception cases (Stonewall are pushing for this to be decrimimalised), so not something women need to be especially concerned about in a public toilet.

Once again, female pattern of offending rather than using strength (I dont condone the deception and I do think it ahould be prosecuted).

Fieldofgreycorn · 07/04/2023 23:37

Don’t disagree entirely but the same research that is often used to claim trans women have a rate of sex offending equal to males a) does not actually specifically highlight sex offending and b) does show trans men have a pattern of violent offending similar to males.

so not something women need to be especially concerned about in a public toilet.

The likelihood of being attacked by a trans woman in a public toilet is so incredibly unlikely and rare you could argue it’s not something women ‘need to be especially concerned about’. You’re more likely to die in a terrorist attack or car or by a man you live with. But anyone is free to be concerned about what ever they like of course.

ditalini · 07/04/2023 23:48

Fieldofgreycorn · 07/04/2023 23:37

Don’t disagree entirely but the same research that is often used to claim trans women have a rate of sex offending equal to males a) does not actually specifically highlight sex offending and b) does show trans men have a pattern of violent offending similar to males.

so not something women need to be especially concerned about in a public toilet.

The likelihood of being attacked by a trans woman in a public toilet is so incredibly unlikely and rare you could argue it’s not something women ‘need to be especially concerned about’. You’re more likely to die in a terrorist attack or car or by a man you live with. But anyone is free to be concerned about what ever they like of course.

Once again for those at the back, it's males we'd like to stay out of single sex spaces. Don't care what they're wearing. Don't care what they're identifying as. Don't care what their motivation is.