Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

Men are free to campaign for single sex spaces if they want them. I'm not going to second guess what men "might" want.

Are there any scientific studies that compare adult male and female ability to recognise sex in adults?

I’d be surprised if it was equal because the drivers behind sex recognition are not the same for both sexes.

Survival is prioritised before reproduction in all humans. The physical differences between the classes of men and women create a requirement for women to recognise the male sex as a potential threat. This is not the case for men.

You might second guess what men might want, the post I quoted had decided it was fine for men to not have single sex spaces but women must have them. Hypocrite.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Its a very old sexist belief that it's up to women to sort everyone else's problems and set up facilities for them before considering themselves.

The clue is in the title of the forum: this board looks at the needs and issues of female humans.

I don't know if it was me you quoted but I made the argument up thread.

I don't think it's hypocritical at all.

Women and men have different needs and the reasons for segregating women and men in the first instance were often to benefit women. In sport women have a separate category to allow for fair competition and safety. Men don't need to have a separate category for those reasons so it doesn't matter if there is a female / open approach. The history behind female toilets and changing rooms was to allow for women to be able to safely participate in public life. Men already had the privilege of participating in public life because the whole of society was already set up for them.

And we currently find ourselves in a situation where women's facilities are being taken away whilst men get to keep their spaces. I don't think it's hypocritical to say that the reverse of this would be much better and that under the circumstances if there are only two sets of toilets there should be a mixed "gender" toilet for men and all those other genders and people who don't mind a mixed-sex space and a female toilet for those of us who want single-sex provision.

It's not on that women are challenged like this, but it's not true that 'trans people have brought this nonsense on them"!

I've skimmed to page 7 and I'm still not sure where trans men are supposed to go to the toilet!

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets. And everyone will just know they are trans men and not women.

I'm not sure that's going to work...

I think the whole issue has been made complex delberately so.

In my view there are just two sex/genders - male and female and people cannot changed from the one they are born as. If the biology is followed then a born male used the male facilities and the born female uses the female facilities. How this is "policed" is another matter but I honestly think this approach would also pre-empt a lot of the fads amongst teenagers as the whole premises that you can change and you can say you something different and you are makes changing biology as easier as putting on a new pair of shoes.

If the poster’s wife above has been using ladies loos without comment for decades and now gets directed to the gents by people stupidly assuming she’s a transman who is to blame for the change other than transactivists?

if short-haired masculine-dressing women have ceased to be recognised as women in recent years, who is to blame other than transactivists?

If butch lesbians are now assumed to be straight men, what is to blame if not transactivism?

The T has a lesbophobia problem and they’re spreading it to normies via work place schemes such as Stonewall’s Equality Index.

Many women dress like men, increasingly clothes is unisex, but we aren't defined by our clothes or our haircut. Years ago we would have defined girls who dressed in "boy" type clothing a tomboys now those same girls are being persuaded they are a boy. This new ideology has made people question someones sex/gender when it should not have done in my view.

Butch lesbians are also challenged by GC people who think they're men or trans women and try to send them to the men's toilets. So by your logic, GC people are to blame.

It's people not minding their business who are to blame.

'Mind your own business' (and if you're excluded by males in your space oh well) is what got us here. It means 'women shut up and serve men'. If you're an MRA then that's an opinion and you do you, but this is a women's rights forum and it won't go unchallenged.

The myth of butch women being challenged is largely a myth created again to try and bully women into surrendering to men in their spaces for fear of hurting a woman. In fact a lesbian or a TM merely needs to smile and speak in my experience to immediately be identifiable as a safe person in a female space, and the ones I have met have been sensitive to women's needs and understood their fears.

And it is true, it has arisen because women have had to become afraid of men deceiving and entering their spaces without care for the needs of females or of excluding them. In the days when female only spaces were respected, it did not matter how a female presented. There was no fear of whether they were or were not female. If single spaces are returned to being biologically sex based then this fear will be resolved and women can go back to a full and wonderful diversity of female people and female choices of presentation without fear that this may be a male.

Not to mention actually, if it's just a case of everyone minding their own business, male people can expect that of men and use men's spaces and it won't matter, will it?

The myth of butch women being challenged is largely a myth created again to try and bully women into surrendering to men in their spaces for fear of hurting a woman. In fact a lesbian or a TM merely needs to smile and speak in my experience to immediately be identifiable as a safe person in a female space

Exactly. As soon as she smiles or speaks it will be obvious that she is a woman. It's never been an issue in the past!

Butch lesbians are also challenged by GC people who think they're men or trans women and try to send them to the men's toilets

It is very obvious and apparent to most people whether you are talking to a male or a female! So no, 'butch' women are no threat at all!

Perhaps rather than skimming you should try reading the thread, where this is properly addressed.

To summarise:

In a social context where it is accepted and respected that toilets (or whatever single sex spaces we are talking about) are single sex rather than anything to do with gender, most people, including trans people, will respect that convention. So women will tend to assume a transman in their space is exactly that, a transman, aka a woman.

In a social context where it is accepted and respected that toilets (or whatever single sex spaces we are talking about) are single sex rather than anything to do with gender, women will feel empowered and supported to challenge someone they believe may in fact be the opposite sex.

This means a few transmen may be challenged, which may cause embarrassment and discomfort on both sides. Apologies will be made. Similar to what happens if you push open a cubicle and find someone is already there...it's not supposed to happen and we're all a bit embarrassed but we all realise it's a genuine error.

It also means a few men of nefarious intent may (a) pass as possibly transmen, (b) lie if challenged, and (c) not do anything to reveal themselves by their behaviour.

While this means it's true the social contract (or even a law) cannot be 100% guaranteed and broadly relies on self compliance coupled with risk of shame and humiliation if caught breaking it, that's no different to any other law/social contract. We can't police everything all the time and we can't guarantee everyone who does transgress is caught. Nevertheless, we still consider it worthwhile having legal or social rules like "don't steal", or "don't shit in the street"

in brief, no we can't guarantee 100% compliance, but that's not different to any other legal or social rule, and most of us think the advantages when it does work are worth keeping even accepting the occasional breach.

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets.

Women need protection. So it is women's spaces that need protection from men.

Men's spaces don't need protection so women are welcome to use their spaces.

Everyone's going to use the toilets it says on their birth certificates, which ideally won't be changeable, right?
So trans men should use the women's toilets.

No, it is mainly to protect women's spaces from men.

Are you claiming butch lesbians/ gender non conforming women are never challenged by GC women in female toilets? Because that would be wrong. It's not a myth. And in these cases, it's not males who are trying to exclude the women from the female toilets. Why a woman challenged in the toilet should have to smile is also baffling.

Have you watched any of Hannah Gadsby's shows? There was never a magical time when women were safe and it didn't matter how they presented, and it's not the fault of trans people.

So can/ should trans men use the female toilets?
Are women safe from trans men in toilets?

Are you claiming butch lesbians/ gender non conforming women are never challenged by GC women in female toilets?

But these women can easily reassure other women by simply talking to them - these lesbians are no threat to other women!

So can/ should trans men use the female toilets?
Are women safe from trans men in toilets?

Personally I wouldn't mind.

For me the threat stems from biological men using female spaces.

We have no evidence that women are at notable ( sone increased tendency to violence has been noted with testosterone) elevated risk from transmen over other women so there is no clear reason to exclude them from female spaces

There is a problem if you have an actual "passing" transman in terms of normalising the sight of apparent men using female facilities and also causing upset to a women - a high percentage of women have PTSD from sexual assaults and as such should be entitled to dignity and respect of single sex spaces
. In this unusual case I would say they should use the gents. Because although men are also entitled to privacy / respect which this would negate , men are less likely on average to be severely affected

Assigned male at birth = men's toilets
Assigned female at birth = women's toilets

We can't allow any compromise or it will be used as a wedge.