Transmen

[Questioningfolke]

Lots of people generally think that people should use the toilets/facilities of their biological sex.
This would mean transmen using the women's bathroom. Lots of transmen 'pass' as men, which means if they're in the women's toilets then people will fell unsafe and uncomfortable with a 'man' in the women's toilets. You wouldn't know if they had a penis or not. They're just a man in the women's bathroom.

Lots of time you really can't tell a transman is trans not just a man if they've taken hormones.

Birth certs and GRCs and genitals aren't checked when you enter a public space.

This could prompt men claiming theyre transmen to enter women's spaces too, no?

I was just asking a question about the practicality of enforcing it. If you can't tell someone is trans...but maybe suspect they could be....so what do you do? Go tell a police officer? And then what does he or she do? Ask the suspiciously gendered person to prove they have 2 X chromosomes somehow? How is it enforceable?

With speeding, a cop witnesses the offense and then pulls the violator over and issues a ticket. Now sure, if the suspiciously gendered person is rocking a beard it's a bit easier. But what I was asking is how do you enforce this when the trans person passes?

Good comparison between using the wrong loo and speeding. There are very few police patrol cars in the UK and there are warnings on roads that have speed cameras so the chance of being caught is very low. And yet, there is very little speeding. This is because the vast majority of drivers recognise that it's wrong so don't do it.

Why are all these theoretical trans people devoid of care or respect for female people and female spaces and trying to deceive their way in?

This seems really transphobic to me. It's a very negative generalisation.

How is it enforceable?

Same way it's always been enforceable.

Someone in control of the venue tells the person to get out. Person gets out. If person refuses to get out, person is told to leave the venue altogether.

If they refuse to leave at that point, they are trespassing, and the police get in to deal with the trespass.

The ultimate enforcement can simply be based on simple trespass law. The law does not need to be involved in the venue's single-sex policy.

The person telling them to get out does not need to prove their sex (just as a venue doesn't have to prove someone's age to tell them to get out). The onus would be on the person wanting to stay in to prove they were eligible.

Unfortunately there seems to be no way an individual can easily prove their sex any more, as all main forms of ID now let people put false sex info, so whatever your ID says proves nothing.

So it's ultimately the same as any "no ID" case - if you appear to be the wrong sex, you're out, just as if you appear underage, at the venue's discretion.

Yeah, you are missing the point. There isn't always a cop. The speedo doesn't always fire. The speed reading may be borderline and the cop not sure enough to act.

Nevertheless, we have speed limits. The fact they are not enforceable 100% of the time in practice is not a reason not to have them at all.

How does it work for single sex spaces? Like every other law/rule.

Most people are decent and respectful and comply because they want to.
Some don’t really want to comply but do so anyway out of social conformity.
A handful don’t comply.
Some will be caught in the act because they were obviously in the wrong and asked to leave.
Some won't be caught at first but their behaviour betrays them.
Some will never be caught.

How does it work for single sex spaces? Like every other law/rule, and like it did with no one asking "but how can this work without a chromosome test?" right up until entitled men (original male meaning) decided to ignore it and take what they wanted.

You might be the sort of person who thinks those men should be rewarded by throwing up our hands and saying "if we can't stop all of you, we won't bother stopping any of you". I'm not. Women (original female meaning) are worth more than that.

How surprising that this should appear in the Guardian. Was someone practicing?

www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/11/glaring-flaws-in-the-idea-of-excluding-trans-people-from-single-sex-spaces?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

So myself, as a woman who presents to some people more 'masculine', someone would be able to get me kicked out the toilets/woman's spaces if they didn't like the way I looked?! Or didn't believe I was a woman. Just because I dont look how they think I should, that's far too subjective.

So only one type of woman really can use public spaces under your rules.

Glad you're not in charge!

But what you're saying here is:

women cannot protest someone they think is a man in their space, in case it's not a man and hurts feelings.

So women must have men in their spaces and shut up about it, to avoid offending anyone.

And that means a good number of women will just have to accept being excluded from women's spaces so that men can use them without anyone objecting. (In case of offending a woman.)

As opposed to:

a) a woman explaining that no, she's a woman and it's ok

b) everyone accepting that before men started using women's spaces with total disregard for how they presented/with swords/death threats/yada yada women did not ever have to worry how a woman presented because they knew, whether feminine or not, she would be a woman. This is a problem CAUSED by male transactivists. Who's solution is that having done this to women, their abuse victim stops upsetting everybody by protesting the abuse. It's Women's Aid 101.

c) men just respecting, however they identify, that females need a space where they are not having to worry that the person next to them is a man. Because women have needs for accessibility and inclusion too.

Yeah the trans activist position is:

men are fine, we like it, shut up and put up. Women are being excluded/have lost equality of access/equality of humanity - but fuck that, men are happy! So don't change anything!

But we keep hearing how the answer to men having caused this problem for women, and excluded them, it's the job of women to bend a bit more, accommodate, stop whining, just be excluded quietly -

what exactly are trans activists offering women here to help with this mess they have created in their own agenda with serene lack of fucks to give for inclusion, kindness, diversity, all those big words they throw around constantly?

I have to be honest that I don't see a big role for enforcement unless someone on either side decides to break the law. If you were to enter a loo that I was in and I mistook you for a man I would question your right to be there. You would tell me that you are a woman. I would apologise and feel embarrassed for both of us.

Job done and I would walk away thinking that I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Still doesn't give any excuse for a male to come in.

Has this (being kicked out of the women's toilets) been happening all your life?

If so, how did you used to manage?

If not, what changed?

So myself, as a woman who presents to some people more 'masculine', someone would be able to get me kicked out the toilets/woman's spaces if they didn't like the way I looked?! Or didn't believe I was a woman. Just because I dont look how they think I should, that's far too subjective.

If two separate independent people are convinced you're male, that's conclusive enough for me.

If you're actually female, I do not believe this has ever happened to you, nor will it ever happen to you. (If you're male, then of course it will happen all the time).

Maybe someone mistaking a woman as male at first glance, sure, and maybe it's conceivable one person might for some strange be convinced a woman was male, but two in a row? Nope.

So if two independent people say you are male then you are male? So it isn't down to biology then, is that right?

Is any answer but women saying 'fine, men get all the spaces, women accept the biological burden of being excluded, while lying that sex doesn't exist' ever going to work for you?

Do you have any thoughts on how we help women excluded by males wanting everything all the time and making everything impossible for them?

Abject surrender and female exclusion for male happiness. Yay male supremacism.

Up until the point where any man who said he was a woman could just walk into the ladies loos we didn't have a problem with women being routinely mistaken for men. I doubt that is actually happening now either.

But if that is happening now on an increased level it's 100% down to women now expecting there to possibly be a man there and being hyper alert and over compensating.

This problem isn't down to women suddenly being mean it's down to men putting some of us on edge because they have invaded our safe single sex spaces.

What are we going to do with the female humans excluded by all this progressive wonder?

I mean I know they're just boring old worthless females, but is all the talk about the importance of kindness, inclusion, embracing diversity, intersectionality real? Or was it just a lot of manipulative wankery to benefit male humans?

Exactly this.

‘Masculine presenting’ (fuck my life that I even have to type that load of stereotypical nonsense) women are only being questioned BECAUSE men have taken to invading our single-sex spaces.

But what are those women supposed to do? My husband has two nieces who don't fit the stereotype, I mean on here if you have big hands and feet your are male, well they are female and over 6ft tall with size 9 feet and big hands so to some that "proves" they are men even though they are women.

You're really not interested in discussion are you? Or in the subject. Just on your own agenda.

Is that for me? I don't have an agenda, I just feel sorry for a woman who is hounded out of female toilets because she doesn't fit some template of what a woman is supposed to look like. I don't dress in a very feminine way, I spend my life in jeans and t shirt or jumper but it is OK because I'm 5ft 3in and not muscular but if I was my husband's niece I'd be worried about what I should wear.

I just feel sorry for a woman who is hounded out of female toilets because she doesn't fit some template of what a woman is supposed to look like.

That has never been a problem in the past (until males invaded our space) and I think most of us can tell pretty easily if someone is male or female - it's pretty obvious!

I don't know if it happened before, I guess we'd have to ask women who don't fit the template. Either way if it is happening now that isn't OK is it. I've read on here many times that you can tell from the hands and feet and I can tell you my DHs nieces who are over 6ft tall have big hands and feet but they are women.

Don't you feel any sympathy for a woman being humiliated by being told she can't go in the women's toilet? It would be so embarrassing, so yes I feel for them and maybe being short isn't that bad although I've always fancied being taller.

I just feel sorry for a woman who is hounded out of female toilets because she doesn't fit some template of what a woman is supposed to look like.

This is the way it is and has been headed for a while now. A lot of women would be wise to think very critically where they stand on this as they too will be next on the chopping block.

I've read on here many times that you can tell from the hands and feet

I don't think it's just the hands and feet - it's the same hole demeanour and the way someone walks and speaks - it's pretty obvious!!

Sorry 'whole demeanour'