Suella Braverman vows to stamp out grooming gangs behind organised child sex abuse

[IwantToRetire]

The Home Secretary, writing in The Mail on Sunday, pledges to 'track down and punish the grooming gangs with the same sense of mission and determination' used to pursue the murderers of Stephen Lawrence, the black British teenager who was killed in a racially motivated attack at a bus stop in South London in 1993.

Ms Braverman, who was born in Harrow, in North-West London, to a Kenyan mother and Mauritian father, writes: 'The time has come to make right one of the greatest injustices seen in Britain in modern times. The systematic rape, exploitation and abuse of young girls by organised gangs of older men – and the disgraceful failure of the authorities to act despite ample evidence – is a stain on our country.'

A Buddhist, Ms Braverman describes the 'perpetrators' as 'groups of men, almost all British-Pakistani, who hold cultural attitudes completely incompatible with British values'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11928629/SUELLA-BRAVERMAN-mission-ensure-really-no-hiding-place-gangs-grooming-young-girls.html

I am not sure if this is just the DM take on what she said, or if it accurately reflects what she said.

If she did say this and not talk about how men of all cultures, given the opportunity, have and will exploit young women, then she is letting down all the women who are exploited.

@Whaeanui I was asking because another poster seemed happy to discuss multiculturalism having downsides. They didn’t seem to be narrowing it down to only one group of people. Not a complaint, just explaining how it read 😉

And thank you for your answer. Multiculturalism always feels tricky to pin down, even when it’s in your own family. One of my kids doesn’t really speak his dad’s language. He grew up here, both kids’ views and values aren’t different to any of their English peers. When we celebrate DH’s religion, it’s at home or with other friends of that nationality. Literally no one else notices it and the kids don’t really follow it, they just like the snacks. They’re not indigenous British, but how do they differ? It’s literally just the colour of their skin or their features. And who’s going to admit to judging that?

I think there are downsides to immigration of people from countries where women don't have rights and freedoms. That culture is incompatible with British culture. If we then say all cultures are equally good and should be able to exist harmoniously alongside one another, what do we do with the people who think a girl in a short skirt is a whole or that a girl who is raped should be killed for the honour of her family?

Some aspects of different cultures are beneficial and cooperative. Food, festivals etc. But when it comes to values, I feel lucky as a woman to have been born in the UK where I have rights and have never had to do what a man tells me to do. I don't want to lose that. I want women who immigrate here to be able to exercise those same rights and freedoms.

It's a downside of multiculturalism that we don't distinguish the relative goodness of different cultures and ask people who come here to assimilate to British values when it comes to gay rights, women's rights and religious freedoms.

The fact that a woman recently had to go and beg a bunch of Muslim men for forgiveness after her son scuffed a copy of the Quran, or the fact that a teacher in Batley is still in hiding from death threats, or many other examples, makes me think we are losing our values and adopting foreign ones. And I don't think that's a good thing. Food, yes. Music, yes. Throwing gay people off the roof, no thank you.

I agree beastlyslumber

I've lived in many different countries and each place has had its own culture and traditions. Some were amazing and some made me very glad to not be stuck there. In Egypt, for example, I was sexually harassed and assaulted literally every time I left my apartment. There was absolutely a culture of woman-hating.

The question I’ve already asked twice is - as my children aren’t 100% indigenous British, are they less worthy of being here?

That’s a bit left field - am not sure why you are asking.

Since I am a blend of bits I don’t think I’m in any position to talk about who is worthy of being wherever. There is literally no one ‘land’ I belong to.

For me, on the highest level I am not really down with the idea of people ‘owning’ land. I think human beings should be free to seek out the good stuff and avoid the bad - just like wild animals do.

On the other hand, I feel that people who are already settled should be respected as much as possible and not be unduly put out by newcomers. I think it is incumbent upon newcomers to ingratiate themselves. The most fair and peaceful solution is probably the right one.

what do we do with the people who think a girl in a short skirt is a whole

What do we do with white British men who think that? There are plenty of them...

ask people who come here to assimilate to British values when it comes to gay rights, women's rights and religious freedoms.
They are subject to British law and the same penalties for hate crime and abuse as any other citizens

Throwing gay people off the roof, no thank you.
There is a lot of homophobic crime in the UK but I've never heard of that happening here. Is there a particular reason you think it will?

The threat of a Fascist, far right government seems a lot more realistic to me than that we are somehow going to get turned into an ISIS style country by stealth immigrants. As I posted upthread, a characteristic of early Fascism is appealing to intruder threat. Your worries about multiculturalism align with that. You feel threatened by people from other cultures. The fascist rhetoric of our government, far right groups and media contribute to that feeling. You are being manipulated.

@beastlyslumber - the point you make is one that was never thought about at the point that mass migration started in the UK. I agree with your post.

The tougher truth is that probably governments thought people would not stay or they would just become British in a kind of reverse colonialism. Multiculturalism was supposed to be a way of getting over that issue, but it's naive to imagine that you can assume that you can liberalise your own largely white Christian society in a few generations as we did and also have mass migration from countries with strong religious beliefs which counter that.

My view is that a liberal society takes a lot of muscle to keep going and preserve the freedoms gained for everyone.

So @beastlyslumber your problem isn’t with multiculturalism so much as integration?

I mean I absolutely agree that no one in the UK should be following sharia law, or throwing gay people off a roof (which hasn’t happened in the UK) or abusing and controlling women, or carrying out honor killings. We have laws that protect that list, and I don’t agree that “we” are “losing our values and adopting foreign ones”. Are our values that easily broken?

As I mentioned upthread, integration and education is vital for communities, and assuming that all men from a certain country behave in the same exact way isn’t that far off other people believing that British girls are all slags. It’s the same problem (although not with the same results), just in different directions. Alienating people - whether it’s British Pakistani men or Brexit voters - creates division and damages communities. How can we protect women and children if there’s no space for education about life and laws of the UK, or esol classes to help them advocate for themselves? How can we protect children of the government is making them targets of racist abuse?

If everyone accepts that cultures exist, which seems to be the case then do some have different views on women generally?

it's naive to imagine that you can assume that you can liberalise your own largely white Christian society in a few generations as we did and also have mass migration from countries with strong religious beliefs which counter that.
What are you scared will happen?
Most 2nd/3rd gen from immigration become westernised. As you point out, we are more Liberal with more social freedoms than the countries they left. Why would children growing up here want to embed a less tolerant society? That makes no sense.

Christianity is declining in the west as people learn more about science and the universe. Aheism/agnosticism is on the rise. Migration will have no effect on that.

What's left is being white. Which is a skin pigmentation and has no bearing on the attitudes or abilities of the person that has it. Does it matter if white skin becomes a minority? We talked upthread about indigenous people, if we were "indigenous british" we'd see a lot more red heads and dark hair/pale skin that we do. That got bred out by the vikings/normans/Anglo saxons and we don't even think about it now.

Oh ffs, no I'm not being maniplated. What a patronising thing to say.

Have you ever lived in a country where women and gays don't have rights? I have. There's a difference between a man raping and abusing in contradiction to his culture's values and a man raping and abusing in accordance with his culture's values. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure what to say to you.

And the whole point of this thread is that people haven't wanted to challenge people's "values" when it comes to the law, so women and girls have suffered as a result.

Likewise, there are no blasphemy laws in this country and yet anyone who shows a cartoon of Muhammed will be in fear of his life. That's not a British value, is it? And yet, we're de facto adopting it. We wouldn't be doing that spontaneously if Muslims weren't here, would we? I've no objection to anyone practising their religion but I don't think others should be forced to go along with it and where its in contradiction to the laws of the land, it shouldn't be practised. I don't want fucking sharia law here - we have a justice system already. I don't want blasphemy laws and terrorist attacks on teachers. But saying so apparently makes me a fascist??? Fuck off.

Have you ever lived in a country where women and gays don't have rights? I have. There's a difference between a man raping and abusing in contradiction to his culture's values and a man raping and abusing in accordance with his culture's values. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure what to say to you.

Women don't have equal rights to men in this country still. We don't have the right to bodily autonomy. Women can only terminate a pregnancy up to 24 weeks, with authority from 2 doctors.

And our cultures values do facilitate rape and abuse of women. We don't effectively bring rapists to justice. They can act with impunity. 1 in 4 women are estimated to be raped or sexually assaulted in the UK. In 2022 there were 72,000 reported rapes and only 2600 charges bought. Sorry, but we aren't a country where men rape and abuse in contradiction of values.

But still, those other countries are not the UK. We are not about to turn around and take away gay people and women's rights. I really don't understand why you'd think that was a threat.

@BewareTheLibrarians I don't get the leap you're making from me saying I think British values are superior to, say, Egyptian ones, to saying that there shouldn't be education or esol classes or that it's fine to target people with racist abuse??? Obviously I didn't say any of those things. I think there should be a lot more education and a lot more stringent demands made on immigrants in terms of understanding British culture and values. I worked closely with the Bangladeshi community in Birmingham for years and met women who had come here as child brides, never learned the language, lived like slaves, never left the few streets around their home. How is that okay? It's fucking awful. Those women should have had lives of freedom and equality in the UK. Meanwhile their husbands are doing whatever they like. That's a situation that shouldn't be allowed to happen here.

Yes I agree with this.

@AdamRyan Once again, Suella was specifically talking about the grooming gangs in certain areas and also later said she is NOT talking in general about Pakistani Muslim men. To answer your question, Maori men are over represented in domestic violence statistics in NZ, which is high in general. This is discussed all the time, with honest facts. Some people bristle and say maori weren’t violent until colonisation ( not true ), but anyone in government has to discuss it. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be able to address why. If we just said ‘men’, we would not have policies suited to Maori culture. It’s the same with health care, Maori have lower life expectancy and worse health outcomes and that’s because people have failed to address the cultural differences, which is thankfully now changing. Things like having more Maori in health care as well as policing and the legal profession is part of the solutions to both problems. You see these discussions as othering, blaming, racist. I know them to be factual, helpful and culturally specific. If we treat everyone as exactly the same without taking into account important factors in their behaviour such as sex, race and class, we will not solve anything. It’s like saying ‘people’ are sex offenders when we know that it’s accurate to say ‘men’ are, predominantly men. Recently a NZ MP yelled out at the protest against women speaking, ‘ I know who commits violence, it’s cis het men!’ She was widely condemned. You know why? Wrong time and place, yes, completely inappropriate way to do it. Yes that too. But it was also factually untrue. One other thing. Maori men are also over represented in drug crimes. But when that was identified and investigated, it was found that Maori men were more likely to be arrested for small drug crimes than white men doing the same things. Maori men were also given harsher sentences. Honest conversations about the sex, race and class of people who commit crimes is an absolutely crucial tool in tackling crime and creating fairer societies.

@AdamRyan trust me, it's a lot lot LOT worse being a woman in a country where you have no rights or freedoms.

Of course men from those countries bring those attitudes and behaviours with them. And then people like you are too scared to call out how shit it is because other people like you call you racist. Meanwhile there are already areas of the UK that are unsafe for women and girls to walk around because they are dominated by immigrants from Pakistan or asylum seekers from Albania etc.

I don't get why you wouldn't be worried. You might be if you were a woman or had a daughter and lived in one of these places.

Unfortunately, British born people did go to Syria to throw homosexuals off roofs and they would want the same for the UK.

@AdamRyan - I think it has to be more complex than the idea of being white. And it is. Liberalism is complex because I think that at its core, that particular change in England from a Victorian Christian society meant lots of other changes such as the decline of the Church, end of censorship, end of death penalty, banning of homosexuality and expanding education. All great.

But this New England wasn't religious. And I find the presence of religion, which is generally oppressive to women and homosexuals, really problematic. I am not any kind of fan of it in public life, and multiculturalism seems to say that this is an important element in England after we finally told the Church we didn't want that anymore. To me, multiculturalism is not liberal but a kind of insistence that there is religion I should respect when it doesn't respect me. I should for example, find it inclusive or diverse. Truthfully, it seems to me to be oppressive of women.

And the whole point of this thread is that people haven't wanted to challenge people's "values" when it comes to the law, so women and girls have suffered as a result.
The whole point of the OP was actually that if she (Braverman) did say this (about British Pakistani gangs being the problem) and not talk about how men of all cultures, given the opportunity, have and will exploit young women, then she is letting down all the women who are exploited. so actually the opposite of what you are asserting. There is no evidence women and girls have suffered because people haven't wanted to challenge values. There is a suspicion, not rooted in fact, which is being used to appeal to fear of the intruder (a fascist tactic)

Likewise, there are no blasphemy laws in this country and yet anyone who shows a cartoon of Muhammed will be in fear of his life.
What a load of hyperbole.
If I walked in the street tomorrow and showed a cartoon of Muhammed to my neighbour, i would not be in fear of my life.
And yet, we're de facto adopting it. We wouldn't be doing that spontaneously if Muslims weren't here, would we? how are we de facto adopting it? If Muslims weren't here, why would we need cartoons of Muhammed? Why do we need them anyway?

But saying so apparently makes me a fascist??? Fuck off.
I'm not saying you are a fascist. I'm saying you are being manipulated by fascist rhetoric from SB and presumably other right wing media and Internet sites. Which the beliefs outlined in your whole post evidences. They are based on fear of intruders, a perceived threat. Not reality.

Fascist, populist governments are horrible and this is how they start. I'm warning you to watch out for how you are being influenced not calling you names.

That makes a lot of sense. I don't really count organised religion as a "culture" though. I respect religious people rights to hold any belief but I don't feel it should have any part in the state.

My problem is people who are anti-multiculturalism more often seem to be pro-christianity and that seems hypocritical.

@BewareTheLibrarians I also want to add that I never said or intended to suggest that all men are a problem. I feel I shouldn't have to say that but I just read your comment again and it seems to suggest I'm saying all men from certain groups are misogynist for example. No, that's not the case. Some people do go against their culture. Some people come here BECAUSE they believe in rights for women and gays, in religious freedom, democracy, equality etc. Also many people of second and third generations have adopted British values fully. But some people come here and bring their oppressive culture and rules with them. And we are supposed to respect and support that in the name of multiculturalism or anti-racism and not prosecute them for crimes and allow them to terrorise teachers and assault girls. They are a minority but they absolutely need to be dealt with.

Once again, Suella was specifically talking about the grooming gangs in certain areas and also later said she is NOT talking in general about Pakistani Muslim men

No matter how many times i read that DM article, i can draw no link to point two (her statement that Pakistani men are responsible for the vast majority of Grooming gangs) and Rochdale, she never mentions Rochdale in pt2.

Of course she had to row back, what she said was rubbish.

I'd like to know how you know what Braverman was specifically talking about because most commentators say she was wrong.

As i said before, there's plenty of homophobia in the UK. What stops them throwing people off roofs here is we have laws against it, the throwers wouldn't be celebrated for it. So they went to ISIS territory instead.

Not sure how that has anything to do with multiculturalism? In fact it seems to show the opposite - that you need to go to those oppressive countries if you want to act that way?

@beastlyslumber Saying this gently, but me discussing my opinion is not attacking you. Saying that Braverman’s comment incites racism is not accusing you of being racist.

And the situation you go on to describe is the work (with women) I used to do before the govt cut all funding, so I completely agree with you there that situations like that shouldn’t happen, and the isolation is so dangerous.

Again it’s the government cutting funding left right and centre then going all pikachu face when it flares up into a problem. Again, this is not a criticism of you. I am agreeing with your point re women, and wishing that community funding existed, for women’s safety.

People mentioning that Braverman is, er, Buddhist might want to look at the particular sect she belongs to....