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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keir Starmer - Trans Rights Can't Override Women's Rights

316 replies

chevvyroo · 01/04/2023 18:42

In The Times

Seems like he's done a strategic U turn. I bet at least he's glad he can stop dodging the "what is a woman?" question.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6841074a-d0a9-11ed-85a8-caaa67d15364?shareToken=2360ce9b239c4fae805bc8364adaea73

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16
Madamecastafiore · 02/04/2023 09:27

He must bathe in Windex as we can still see right through him (MAFS)

ScrollingLeaves · 02/04/2023 09:39

His saying that 99.9% are women by biology means that the remainder he is also calling “women” are actually men.

No U turn.

Righthandcider · 02/04/2023 09:46

LizzieSiddal · 01/04/2023 22:04

What makes me so angry is all the bullshit of “a toxic debate on both sides”. Women spent god knows how many years trying to have a debate, just trying to speak opening ly about our concerns (all of which have been proved to be legitimate) and we were told by many including Labour to Shut The Fuck Up, You Bigots.

Until Starmer apologies for this I don’t want to listen to what he’s got to say.

This was the part that boiled my blood last night too.

Feels an awful lot like he's laying the ground to start characterising KJK's campaign as "creating a toxic divide". I predict he will repeat this phrase until it's fully lodged in the nation's brains.

JacquelinePot · 02/04/2023 09:46

No, it's not a u-turn. That telegraph interview linked upthread shows he's been saying this for at least 4 months.

It was bollocks then, and it's still bollocks now.

Anyway, Labour finally definitely lost my vote when my Labour MP sent me a load of waffle about "most marginalised" when I wrote to.him about section 35

Signalbox · 02/04/2023 09:48

Clymene · 01/04/2023 19:10

And guess what the stats are from the ONS census?

48,000 (0.10%) identified as a trans woman

Boom! There's your other 0.1% for whom he thinks isn't biological.

He thinks he's so fucking clever and women are stupid. Piss off you lying arsehole

Strikes me that 0.1% is a low estimate anyway. The gender identity question in the census wasn’t mandatory was it?

LexMitior · 02/04/2023 09:50

Backpedal.

But while there seems to be outrage I reckon this statement is as near as Kier Starmer will ever get to saying self ID is not something that the Labour Party are going to pursue. That policy is over.

That's because it's a huge vote loser. The number of votes he needs to get to win has to come from majority opinion. It won't come from a very small and vocal set of transgender activists.

Signalbox · 02/04/2023 09:52

Signalbox · 02/04/2023 09:48

Strikes me that 0.1% is a low estimate anyway. The gender identity question in the census wasn’t mandatory was it?

Also by this point it’s not just men who say they’re women who are making use of female spaces it’ll be all the non-binary men who “feel more comfortable” in with the ladies.

SidewaysOtter · 02/04/2023 09:54

The more I think about this, the more pissed off I am.

If Starmer had really had an epiphany on this and truly recognised that Labour has alienated women voters, if he actually understood that Labour’s stance was wrong, then he’d be supporting Rosie Duffield to the hilt and dealing properly with the likes of LRM and his fellow “progressive and liberal” bullies. He’d also be making it clear that a woman is an adult human female, no exceptions.

But he isn’t. He’s hoping that a few carefully crafted statements will appease the majority of those who have an issue with Labour’s stance and the ones who aren’t appeased will be small enough in number not to worry about.

We see you, Keir. We see your weasel words and your fence sitting. We hear the phrase “toxic debate” which is to absolutely ignore that toxicity only really going one way: towards the women who stood up for their rights, and instead of championing us you came out with the political equivalent of “You’re all as bad as each other”. We know you think 48,000 men in women-only spaces is acceptable and that TWAW.

You’re only pretending to listen to us now because it’s in your political interests; we know you and/or the Labour Party have not had a true change of heart on this. Your comments are as patronising as fuck and we see you.

Whaeanui · 02/04/2023 10:15

The more I think about this, the more pissed off I am

Me too. I’m telling my DH what I’m gonna say to any Labour canvassers at my door. Fuck off no woman has a penis. Get away liars.

RealityFan · 02/04/2023 10:21

The Q is, does Mumsnet really represent the genuine temperature of British women? Or are members here confusing what could be a self-selecting echo chamber for millions of women who are technically GC, but not that troubled on all this?

In Scotland, Sturgeon railroaded the Self ID bill thru, and it (and she) was tested to destruction within days by a male double rapist.

The same stress test is unlikely to come Starmer's way before the GE.

lynnikin · 02/04/2023 10:28

Yet there he is in another article saying "99.9pct of women don't have a penis". FFS, Keir, every time you open your mouth you put a foot in it.

Beamur · 02/04/2023 10:37

In Scotland, Sturgeon railroaded the Self ID bill thru, and it (and she) was tested to destruction within days by a male double rapist

We won't really know how widespread the concern is around the self ID issue until nearer the GE. KJK opposing KS will certainly make it hard to ignore.

The reason Scotland imploded so hard on this was the rapist brought home the reality of self ID in visual imagery. Very powerful and uncomfortable to see.

RubyTrees · 02/04/2023 10:43

You’re only pretending to listen to us now because it’s in your political interests; we know you and/or the Labour Party have not had a true change of heart on this. Your comments are as patronising as fuck and we see you.

Absolutely.

Let's also not forget all the Labour MPs who share his view:
https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1442783035389325313

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1442783035389325313

ChristinaXYZ · 02/04/2023 10:50

Someone on twitter nailed this: "Keir Starmer says 99.9% of women don't have penises. He's read the census data: 0.1% of male-sexed people identify as transwomen. That means 48,000 people with penises whom Keir thinks have the right to be in women's sport, loos and changing rooms. Labour's gaslighting us."

https://twitter.com/women_outspoken/status/1642437856416210946

I cannot for the life of my understand why people don't get that Labour loath us (upity women with opinions).

https://twitter.com/women_outspoken/status/1642437856416210946

Needmoresleep · 02/04/2023 11:06

I am standing as a local council candidate. A complete turn up as until a few years back I was completely apolitical, but this issue has got to me and I felt that if ordinary centrist people don’t engage in politics we get the politicians we ‘deserve’.

Keir is beholden to his left wing as Nicola was to the Scottish Greens. He is a presentable face of left of centre politics. He almost certainly knows what a woman is. He also knows that his inability to be honest will cost him votes. Unfortunately for him local Labour parties across the country will be populated by activists, many of whom will tend to blame us for not voting for them, rather than consider listening to women.

I am expected to do a lot of canvassing. I don’t actually think it is a winnable ward, but it is interesting to talk to people. Most are nice, and surprisingly well informed. A few have pounced on me with a raft of questions. Only one “What is a woman”, to which I gave the right answer. When it has come up 100% of people think that this gender stuff is bollox and has gone way too far. People are aware. Men just think the sports thing is bonkers…as in “I’m a cyclist and of course I can ride faster than most women.” Many people plan to vote but don’t know who to vote for.

Lots of people dislike Boris. However many claim to be keeping an open mind to see if Rishi delivers. Labour has other problems. One small business owner said that he will vote Conservative in the general election because he cannot afford not to.

The very weird thing is that Keir has no profile. People don’t dislike him, but no one has said they like him. A few have said they don’t trust him or that they don’t know what he stands for.

Sex is binary. 99.9% does not cut it. I don’t think gender is seen as a party political issue. It is too basic. Instead there is a credibility issue. If people can’t trust Keir on this what can we trust him on.

MarshaBradyo · 02/04/2023 11:11

Need that’s brilliant, really good you are standing. Your experience of what people say doesn’t surprise me at all really.

Feels very close to what I would have guessed

FOJN · 02/04/2023 11:11

Neither this article or the 'Stevenage women' article have been linked on Labour or Starmer's twitter pages. The article about self ID not being a priority wasn't either.
The article about 'modernising the outdated GRA was linked by Labour twitter but not KS.

He is lying to us, again, and it's intentional.

RealityFan · 02/04/2023 11:14

Needmoresleep · 02/04/2023 11:06

I am standing as a local council candidate. A complete turn up as until a few years back I was completely apolitical, but this issue has got to me and I felt that if ordinary centrist people don’t engage in politics we get the politicians we ‘deserve’.

Keir is beholden to his left wing as Nicola was to the Scottish Greens. He is a presentable face of left of centre politics. He almost certainly knows what a woman is. He also knows that his inability to be honest will cost him votes. Unfortunately for him local Labour parties across the country will be populated by activists, many of whom will tend to blame us for not voting for them, rather than consider listening to women.

I am expected to do a lot of canvassing. I don’t actually think it is a winnable ward, but it is interesting to talk to people. Most are nice, and surprisingly well informed. A few have pounced on me with a raft of questions. Only one “What is a woman”, to which I gave the right answer. When it has come up 100% of people think that this gender stuff is bollox and has gone way too far. People are aware. Men just think the sports thing is bonkers…as in “I’m a cyclist and of course I can ride faster than most women.” Many people plan to vote but don’t know who to vote for.

Lots of people dislike Boris. However many claim to be keeping an open mind to see if Rishi delivers. Labour has other problems. One small business owner said that he will vote Conservative in the general election because he cannot afford not to.

The very weird thing is that Keir has no profile. People don’t dislike him, but no one has said they like him. A few have said they don’t trust him or that they don’t know what he stands for.

Sex is binary. 99.9% does not cut it. I don’t think gender is seen as a party political issue. It is too basic. Instead there is a credibility issue. If people can’t trust Keir on this what can we trust him on.

Really good luck to you. I'll check my independent candidates ahead of GE.

I've spent my whole life giving politicians and the police the benefit of the doubt.

No more.

Actions not words.

Problem is, Starmer only has two modes...occasionally angry, man of action...ie purge of Corbyn and anti semitism.

And his fake pained caring look, apparently virtuous, but continues to vacillate on areas that need a principled opinion.

For some reason, he can move against anti semites in his party, but not misogynist TRAs.

Totally bogus.

Whaeanui · 02/04/2023 11:15

Yes he is lying and it absolutely is intentional. It’s hard to know who I dislike more, Corbyn or Starmer. Both have meant I don’t vote Labour anymore.

viques · 02/04/2023 11:18

Anyone cynical would think there were local elections in the offing or something……..

AutumnCrow · 02/04/2023 11:28

If in Keir Starmer's world there are 48,000 'women with a penis' in the UK, and we know that circa 6,000 Gender Recognition Certificates (GRCs) have been issued in total, then Keir Starmer is presumably saying that 42,000 people are already self-identifying?

Therefore Keir Starmer accepts self-ID is already happening and is fine with that?

(Apologies if I have that all wrong.)

Thelnebriati · 02/04/2023 11:30

In any case, since we aren't allowed to challenge a man in the ladies any more, its a moot point if they have a GRC or not.

I want them to clarify how they intend to change the GRA, and if they intend to trap women in marriage by removing the spousal exit clause. How do they think that could be legal? He's a lawyer, he should understand this!

viques · 02/04/2023 11:31

He is still confusing sex and gender though.

Woman = sex, transwoman = gender.

So when he claims that 0.01 % of women have a penis , he should clarify that of the population that “identify” themselves as women 0.01% are not actually women , but transwomen.

Women who are women constitute 100% of the population who are women. Even if they identify themselves as transmen, or other genders.

unclebuck · 02/04/2023 11:33

Reverse ferret or insincere weasel?

fdgdfgdfgdfg · 02/04/2023 11:36

I still think, that like most men, Starmer doesn't really think TWAW and has only been on that route because he's taken the mood of the country and figured it's a vote winner. It's only really come to light recently what an unpopular view it is.

The tide is turning nationally. Hell, it's even turning on this board. There's things you can say on here now that a couple of months ago would have gotten you a ban. We're still working out what we can now say.

And out in the real world people and politicians are also trying to work out what they can say. If I say TWAM at work, then I'll still probably get ostracised, but I can probably have a conversation about women's sports now that I wouldn't have felt comfortable about a few months ago.

Starmer is probably having the same thoughts. He cant just flip completely, as journalists would have a field day, so it's baby steps. And he'll be worrying about how far the party will follow him, and how far the voters will follow him.

None of us really know how much the mood of the public has changed on this, and he's still got a year before a general election to work it out.