Page 8 | Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

RealityFan · 2023-04-01T15:07:29+00:00

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot. I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here. My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE. I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis. I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike. My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject. I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

AmuseBish · 01/04/2023 20:21

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man.

Genuinely - what is the difference? The type of unexplainable feeling the trans woman has?
How do you know you are cis? You have some sort of feeling that you think "matches" the biological sex of female? Can you describe that feeling and/or does it largely equate to "femininity"?

YoucancallmeJorgeDeGuzman · 01/04/2023 20:28

BlüeöysterCunt · 01/04/2023 20:10

Yeah they don't care except as another poster pointed out, when it's a woman that belongs to them. "Not MY wife, daughter etc".

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But that's the thing with people isn't it...they only care when it is something that affects them or the people they love..

I care about feminism only because I'm female and I have a daughter.

BlüeöysterCunt · 01/04/2023 20:32

YoucancallmeJorgeDeGuzman · 01/04/2023 20:28

But that's the thing with people isn't it...they only care when it is something that affects them or the people they love..

I care about feminism only because I'm female and I have a daughter.

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Yea but I'm sure you have empathy for other women too. Men can want to protect their wives and daughters while watching violent porn.

Original poster

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 20:34

nepeta · 01/04/2023 19:43

It's good to hear different views, though all of us can only give our own views so nobody really can talk for their own sex. But I have wondered, quite a bit, about the question why so many women (certainly young feminists such as in the NOW) seem to be unaware of the existence of paraphilias and how they can sometimes be forced on others and how those who have one also often have others, some of them clearly not safe for others involuntarily drawn into them.

So my question would be if the OP thinks that men, in general, have always been more aware of paraphilias or not and how they might affect some men to decide to live as women, how common they are and so on, or if the usual understanding among the men he knows is just about people "born in the wrong body" or the current social justice version of that, i.e., without understanding that transitioners seem to have many different explanations for their desire to do so, and some explicitly state agp as the reason.

No, I don't think men are more aware of paraphillias. I decided to delve, and what a hornets nest I disturbed.

Now I believe men are more prone to paraphillias than women...how many female pedophiles are there?

And it may be that autogynephilia is way more widespread than we thought (just check Reduxx).

Is there a female equivalent, maybe less toxic but nonetheless all-encompassing.

What's different is that:
Online media ramps it up, broadens it, makes it more varied.

Social media allows instant kinship with others. No need to try and find another fetishist combing the streets, Google is your friend.

And so unexpected (indeed, noone could have), this fetish is given a bye, polite society somehow tuning only to what's said by them "TWAW" and not why/how.

OP posts:

Stillcountingbeans · 01/04/2023 20:36

BackOfTheMum5net · 01/04/2023 20:19

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man.

Which is to say you have almost nothing in common with either. Seeing as you are female and they are both male.
You might have a very superficial interest in make-up and clothing in common with the TW. But that doesn't have any significance.

You have less in common with any type of male than you do with other females.

To think otherwise is to be blind to the deep deep psychological conditioning that we all receive as children. Not to mention the influence of biology on our human psychologies.

Original poster

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 20:37

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:42

To be clear... you are saying that some of it is women's fault?

Because they challenged their subjugation?
Because they were not 'nice enough' in the language they used?

If so, you still have some way to go to develop a moral attitude.

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I'm reporting how it seemed to me. I'm reporting it was easy to fall into. I'm reporting I refute it now.

The only thing that matters is that it's still a big part of the assault on your sex class. Except this time around the likes of Ash Sarkar etc are giving it the green light.

I don't remember any feminist giving the green light to MRA even a decade ago.

OP posts:

nilsmousehammer · 01/04/2023 20:39

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 19:27

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman.

I would recommend you talk to a trans woman more about this.

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Why are women expected to care about this when the TQ+ political lobby loudly gets derisive and dismissive when women talk about the dangers to them by males in women's spaces?

I'll give you the answer the lobby gives us.

NAMALT
Bigot, you're just prejudiced against men
What's to be scared of, it's only a penis
If you get raped you can always call the police
Reframe your trauma

Either everyone gets to say 'no, I don't feel safe or comfortable so that's not happening' and everyone gets listened to, or no one does. #notyourmum

Original poster

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 20:44

turbonerd · 01/04/2023 20:04

@RealityFan
when you write:

I grew up.
I stopped porn.
I interrogated my thoughts on lots of things (women, gays, migrants etc).

what were the factors that prompted you to stop porn and to interrogate your thoughts?

I had a long super thoughtful (I promise!) post but it got deleted, so I’ll just post my question

Why was your post deleted?

Porn is just a displacement activity. Also you realise you become on a perpetual loop, always looking for a previous image, or the next one.

I'm not even taking about the really distasteful stuff, just certain looks, hair colour etc.

Pre-internet, the pursuit is manageable. In the internet age, just like so many digital pursuits, social media, it just becomes a search without end.

I also just reconnected with my true self, and the reports of the reality of the industry were impossible to deny.

I realised it wasn't condusive to being a better person, nothing about it was healthy.

Also coincided with the awareness of the porn addled TRA community. And that's not anything to be proud of.

OP posts:

AmuseBish · 01/04/2023 20:44

I'm reporting how it seemed to me. I'm reporting it was easy to fall into. I'm reporting I refute it now.

As an impressionable young woman at the time, I agree, it was very much the popular "view" that only sex-positive liberal feminists were the modern, worthwhile ones, not those wanting to ban "harmless" page 3 etc.

I still think a lot of women don't get it until they are parents/ see it for themselves. I did think we had pretty much achieved equality! I had no idea!

anythinginapinch · 01/04/2023 20:51

Thank you OP. I appreciate your posting. You've stayed calm and reflective and I like that.

My question is...

Do you think it's simply the decline of testosterone over the years that enabled you to evolve beyond being a bit of a wanker, so to speak? When I'm prime minister there will be oestrogen and progesterone in the tap water.

BlackForestCake · 01/04/2023 20:52

BackOfTheMum5net · 01/04/2023 20:19

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man.

Why do you feel that?

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 20:52

anythinginapinch · 01/04/2023 20:51

Thank you OP. I appreciate your posting. You've stayed calm and reflective and I like that.

My question is...

Do you think it's simply the decline of testosterone over the years that enabled you to evolve beyond being a bit of a wanker, so to speak? When I'm prime minister there will be oestrogen and progesterone in the tap water.

When I'm prime minister there will be oestrogen and progesterone in the tap water.

As a trans woman, I support this decision.

AmuseBish · 01/04/2023 20:57

As a trans woman, I support this decision.

Why, does being a woman have something to do with the biological make-up of bodies?

ironorchids · 01/04/2023 20:58

I wish there was a dadsnet and that on this dadsnet there was a community of men all riled up about defending women's rights.

Does anything like this exist?

nilsmousehammer · 01/04/2023 20:59

Always so interesting how some male people feel the need to announce themselves to women, and other long term MNetters go years without anyone realising.

Humanity. It's not a male-only thing.

nilsmousehammer · 01/04/2023 21:00

ironorchids · 01/04/2023 20:58

I wish there was a dadsnet and that on this dadsnet there was a community of men all riled up about defending women's rights.

Does anything like this exist?

Dadsnet right here on this site. You can find it on the main talk menu.

Created because of whingeing that how dare women have a mumsnet without providing for dads first.

It's very low traffic.

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 21:01

AmuseBish · 01/04/2023 20:57

As a trans woman, I support this decision.

Why, does being a woman have something to do with the biological make-up of bodies?

huh?????

turbonerd · 01/04/2023 21:07

My post was accidently deleted by me trying to manage a child who wanted to sit on the robotic hoover 😬
I didn’t even want the stupid robot, I am scared of them after those Guinea Pig Spy movies where all robotic appliances were secretly transformers and turned into weapons when the right signal was emitted.

Ok. I reckon the thing about porn is important for this TRA movement, and it is astonishing that such a primitive thing is a driver in this charade.
It is disappointing, because as RealityFan also points out, it is so empty and devoid of thoughtfulness. It’s just instant, superficial gratification Which seems to drive this movement.
Understandable in teenagers for whom everything feels urgent and a year us an eternity. But not understandable in adults, except from this very primitive point of view.

Not sure if primitive is the best Word here.

So how to work against it?
Blank no is the best way forward really. No ifs or buts, just No. No can do.
No debate, in reverse almost.
I can see why KJK landed on that strategy - lightyears ahead of me 😄

JanesLittleGirl · 01/04/2023 21:14

After listening to me whining about this thread all though dinner, DH asked if he could read it. His take is that I should have analysed the title before diving in. The title said that we would get a GC male's understanding of Trans Rights Activism and that is what we got. His next take was that the thread couldn't possibly deliver any meaningful value because, logically, how could a GC person of any sex offer an understanding of TRA. It would be like a socialist explaining free market thinking.

Annoyingly, I couldn't punch a fuck-off big hole in his argument so we moved onto the questions that I'd asked and I got his answers. These are caveated as he knows what I would like to hear and he would like to get between me and my knickers tonight.

He probably wouldn't notice a transwoman in the loo because of men's toilet etiquette. If he did then his brain would go "man in dress; anyway, can I manage another pint of FortyNiner or should I drop down to the Razorback?

He hasn't ever discussed this with his mates but would be amazed and disgusted if they were different.

He can't imagine why anyone would abuse a TW in the men's loos.

He expects that anybody else trying to give a TW shit would be put back in their pretty sharpish and he would be proud to do it if nobody else did.

He reckons that there would be a greater chance of verbal abuse in a toilet full of drunks but it wouldn't change the outcome.

He hasn't ever experienced this situation but did give a IRL analogy:

He was in a Pompey supporters pub on match day when a lone Saints fan walked in. The pub went silent for a moment and then carried on, apart from one guy who wanted to kick-off. It took about 5 seconds for his mates to subdue him and then one of them walked over to the Saints fan, apologised and asked him what he wanted to drink.

Sorry if you've all lost the will to live while reading this post.

JanesLittleGirl · 01/04/2023 21:16

Put back in their box

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/04/2023 21:20

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man

Or in non newspeak...

I'm a woman and I feel I have more I common with some men than others.

Hoppinggreen · 01/04/2023 21:23

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 16:16

It's ok, this isn't a popularity poll. I'm just unsure whether a majority female forum is really that bothered about the male perspective. Nothing I'll say will make things more palatable. But I believe I "understand" the toxic male ethos that underscores the phenomenon better than women. All I want to do is shed some light on what it is, and where it's come from.

Thats very kind of you but we already know all about toxic male ethos

Transparent2 · 01/04/2023 21:48

Brefugee · 01/04/2023 17:44

Feminists only ever wanted equal rights, not to 'ruin anyone's fun'. Women wanted to be included in places where power was brokered and business was done.

They wanted to not be confined to 'the ladies' bag' in pubs because how the fuck would you like to be segregated in that manner?

and they still have them as was recently pointed out on another thread, the Turf Club is one that comes to mind. But this request for equality is often used as a "well you wanted into men's spaces" stick to beat us with.

So from men, i am another who really wants to know: if you found yourself in a men's toilet (am going to assume any TW using a men's wouldn't use a urinal?) and a TW in frock, wig and make up came out of a cubicle to wash their hands, what would the general mood be? Would it automatically come to blows? or would it just be "meh" and carry on with your day?

What about a male trauma group (for sexual assault) - how would they feel about trans men being in that group? Is it ok because there's no underlying feeling that they're getting sexual kicks from it? (or are there?)

For what it’s worth, I would be uncomfortable, and would make my way out of the gents as fast as I could. I would be very unlikely to challenge or comment. I would also be more uncomfortable if my wife encountered the same man in the ladies. If I discovered my mtf son was using women’s toilets I would be shocked and dismayed; I hope I would have the courage to tackle the issue with him (I am scared of the estrangement from my child that many other parents experience).

I do not believe he is an AGP but admit I haven’t got much idea of what motivates him - possibly he is trying to avoid the expectations that are laid on men in our stereotyped society, and has taken on board transgenderism as an answer to that. I would have loved when younger to escape completely the responsibilities I assumed were mine as a man, but have gradually worked out a path in life that is only rarely stereotypically masculine, and in our marriage we have largely managed to work out what makes sense based on our actual strengths and weaknesses.

My son doesn’t appear to fit transgender stereotypes very well, and maybe he will backtrack from where he is now. At the moment I am trying to allow him and his trans ally partner to work out their own salvation, which is difficult as I think transgenderism is illogical and problematic.

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 21:56

BackOfTheMum5net · 01/04/2023 20:19

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man.

What do you have in common?

Do you also feel like you have anything in common with all the women (born ones not TW) who do not call themselves cis/ don't have a gender identity? If you had to share facilities with one or other of those groups (who have nothing in common with each other) which would make most sense for you to share with and why?

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 21:58

Transparent2 · 01/04/2023 21:48

For what it’s worth, I would be uncomfortable, and would make my way out of the gents as fast as I could. I would be very unlikely to challenge or comment. I would also be more uncomfortable if my wife encountered the same man in the ladies. If I discovered my mtf son was using women’s toilets I would be shocked and dismayed; I hope I would have the courage to tackle the issue with him (I am scared of the estrangement from my child that many other parents experience).

I do not believe he is an AGP but admit I haven’t got much idea of what motivates him - possibly he is trying to avoid the expectations that are laid on men in our stereotyped society, and has taken on board transgenderism as an answer to that. I would have loved when younger to escape completely the responsibilities I assumed were mine as a man, but have gradually worked out a path in life that is only rarely stereotypically masculine, and in our marriage we have largely managed to work out what makes sense based on our actual strengths and weaknesses.

My son doesn’t appear to fit transgender stereotypes very well, and maybe he will backtrack from where he is now. At the moment I am trying to allow him and his trans ally partner to work out their own salvation, which is difficult as I think transgenderism is illogical and problematic.

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Why would you want to get out of the gents just because a man in the cubicle is wearing a dress?